This is a project that is sure to raise more than a few eyebrows. The listing found here on eBay states that this a 1965 Pontiac GTO. Upon reading the listing, interested parties will quickly find out that this is really a just LeMans body that is being auctioned with a GTO tag and title.
The seller says that the titles to both cars will come with this deal, but it appears as though the original GTO is long gone. Not even the original 335 horsepower 389, manual transmission, or 3.23 rear end come with the purchase. The GTO aspect seems to be quickly dwindling as the details are given. What really is left from the original car except for the paperwork?
In regards to the interior, what you see is what you get and what you see is almost nothing. It would certainly be easier to count what the interior has rather than what the interior is missing. If there’s a positive here, it’s that the new owner wouldn’t have to remove an old interior prior to starting on a new one.
What started as a 1965 GTO project seems to have turned into more of a GTO clone project…. or maybe even some shady VIN swapping? I won’t pretend to know all the legalities of a deal like this, but I’d be more than a bit skeptical in this situation. The LeMans body is said to have a fair amount of work already done so this might be a situation where a clone project is the better option than trying to retag a different car. Unfortunately, the biggest hindrance here might be the $5,000 opening bid. It certainly doesn’t appear as though a LeMans body in this shape would command that kind of money, but could the PHS documented tag and title set to justify that price?
Current bidding says what those in the know think about it. Would make a nice LeMans and should be represented as it is. Fraud openly encouraged…(?)
I’m not a lawyer, but it’s just plain wrong to encourage this behavior in the hobby. One of my favorite comedians Sebastian Maniscalco says it best; “We used to have a set of rules we all lived by…”
It’s what’s known as a re-shell….BUT not enough left of the GTO to make it a legal or morale re-shell.Just a LeMans..period
Sounds a little shady,shady,shady to me.And where is the rusted original car?
Also sold on the same title perhaps? Caveat emptor the hell out of this deal
This is what we say bull 💩 and should not be encouraged or condoned.
Honestly one would hope the mention of fraud tagging would be flagged or edited out!
We live in a sad society where currently lies are from the top down daily following the old line of “BS talks and BS walks” …..but auto enthusiasts should be above those Lines ….
This is a Lemans and the tag is not part of the equation …
Is this guy breaking the law?, or is he leaving that up to the next owner?
So is their a rusted/rotted out GTO next to that Lemans , or did the GTO get totaled out? Don’t tell me this is all about someone with a Lemans going to a junk yard, finding a same year GTO with the title in the glove box? Then he only takes home the vin tag/pink slip plus some bright work that has a G, a T, and a O, on them. Sure i have Up Graded my old car this way (to be cool) before, but i would never even think of swapping vins, & pinks, gees. But on the other, if the original GTO is 51 % there, isn’t that still a GTO? If any of those parts goes bad then it should be re-titled a clone or Resto Mod, right? The new owner should know everything ahead a time.
I just checked this out on eBay. This is a clone.
Ebay should take the lead here and take this auction down as what the guy is implying is illegal or at least just plain dishonest. I bought a 67 GTO cloned Lemans once for $7500, the seller had advertised it as a GTO in the paper asking 10K. When I went to purchase it I recognized the Lemans gills on the quarter panels he didn’t fill in with bondo and the thinner rocker moldings so I checked the VIN for the 237 and called him out . He apologized and lowered the price but I told him that it was totally dishonest what he was trying to do. I did buy it because the rest of the work he did was super nice. Drove it for 3 years then had a guy bugging me for a year to sell it to him even after I told him it was a clone so I did for $13,500. Some people don’t care when real good GTOs command 30 to 50K.
The fact your LeMans was dressed as a GTO clone while keeping the original LeMans paperwork is perfectly legal and the way you represented it also ethical.
However, what this seller on eBay is suggesting is not only unethical but also a federal crime.
This BS is just one more reason the hidden numbers need to be verified before buying a desirable car.
I hate to be the bad guy but this pushes my buttons…I selected the report this item on the eBay post. I choose misrepresentation as the reason.
Others should report or flag it too ….
I’ve asked my auto restorer friends many times where the line is, everyone has a different answer. Is it not to remove tags?
How about if I rob the parts car of fenders, quarters, floorboards, trunk floor, glass, interior, engine , trans, rear end? Maybe even the frame. But I didn’t touch the tags. Which car is it really?…
as long as you dont separate that vin tag from from the cowl you can replace every other part of a car and still be legal.
OK your right. so this guy should of kept the original cowl with the V-tag. I still think 51 % of the original car by weight should still have to be intact. After all isn’t it true in Cal. you can’t even put full coverage Ins. on a restored/repaired totaled out car? I sure would only want full coverage on a mint looking GTO.
Patent Brand Body Parts are a joke i think, but sometimes it’s all you got.
I don’t believe the seller understands the magnitude of what he is suggesting by selling the two titles and one car. In the least, he has forever chronicled the fact that this Le Mans has an illegitimate history. I liken it to saying “Hey, everybody, I’m going to go rob a bank. Wanna watch?”
This sort of “Tom Foolery” has been going on for years. Back in the pre internet days, (90’s) I went to check out a 69 442 a guy was selling. When I showed up, it was a rusted out shell (so bad from the rust under the vinyl top that the skin had folded back from the wind when the car was hauled to theflippers’s house.) The car still included its’ numbers matching drive train (400/400) and the VIN and title did in fact substantiate it as a true 34487 Holiday Coupe 442,. The other car was a pretty clean Cutlass Holiday coupe, but with no title. but I didn’t feel like getting involved in the potential legal quagmire of swapping VIN and trim tags. I did go as far as having the VIN run to be sure it wasn’t reported stolen, and it came back clean, but to me, there were two possible scenarios; 1. Go through the bonded title process to get the Cutlass titled, which would add substantially to the price,and use the 442 drive train and emblems to build a clone, or 2. Use the 442 VIN, but always have the black cloud of doom hanging over my head. (There are several spots were VINs are stamped, some of which are visible, such as the frame, and others were they are not obvious., for a purpose. Not to mention on the frame, which isn’t. Between all of these issues, and the fact that I was a broke apprentice electrician at the time, I decided to walk away. Coincidentally, one or the other (both?) cars were “Saffron”, which I was not “mad about,” if you get the reference…Some of you older than me surely will…I’m “only” 47y.o. LOL
Nice. A “Mellow Yellow” reference!
Dishonesty is enough for me to walk away!
Ask yourself if the seller is REALLY someone you would want to do business with. How can you trust anything he says about anything?
I just reported it too…. ‘Vehicle Misrepresentation’….
Me three.
At one time I had a bunch of those
“Rosette” shaped rivets. I put them on Ebay for sale, a couple of days later Ebay removed my ad saying it didn’t meet their standards ?
I agree with all of you who reported the car. Either it’s legitimate or it’s not. Period. Acquisition cost, provided you can find anything that makes the car legal as a LeMans is $500.00. It’s also one of the reasons I rarely do business with Ebay or Craigslist.
I passed on a 70 “GTO” Judge Convertible 20years ago because it looked to be a clone. Had all the right stuff but had LeMans rear side markers and said “Pontiac” across the trunk, all dead giveaways that it was a Clone. Came to find out later that a rear end hit had resulted in GTO parts being replaced with LeMans parts to same a few buck as that owner had a LeMans in the backyard.
That had been the Second Owner and had Pics of it post crash and being repaired and all. The car sold after being correctly restored for way more than the 5500.00 that I passed on…
Sometimes a Clone isn’t a Clone at all. GTO was a “Option package” of the Tempest (just like the LeMans) prior to 1966 when the GTO became its own model but still shared the Platform with the Tempest and later the LeMans.
Ouch! Talk about the one that got away. I feel your pain.
BTW, for ’64 and ’65 the GTO was an option package on the LeMans, which was the top trim level of the Tempest. So technically a 1964-65 GTO is a Pontiac Tempest LeMans GTO.
One of my fantasies is that if I had a lot of money, I’d take a GTO and turn it into a LeMans clone just to mess with people’s minds at car shows and such. I know, it’s stupid but it would be a kind of statement…..or something.
LOL.
Not the same thing I know, but many years ago I knew a guy who had a ’70 Judge and when he got it repainted he liked it so much as is he decided not to put on any of the stripes or decals, leaving just the GTO badge in the grille as the only external identification. He also ended up going with plain black sidewall tires and ran it with chrome trim rings on the Rally IIs. Looked incredibly clean and sharp.
If I ever find my brother’s old ’71 GTO I think I’d go for the same effect. Using a ’71 I found online in the same color and with a bit of image manipulation, this is what I’d plan to end up with.
To each his/her own. That’s one of the great things about the car hobby. Everyone can do their own thing.
i would recomend you google this website before you find your living conditions have changed
google : 18 U.S. Code § 511 – Altering or removing motor vehicle identification
also check this site . how to find a lawyer
When back in the day, I bought a few non titled and or non running autos the wrecking yards used to save old titles just for guys like me; I once bought a non titled 53 Stude coupe, bought a 54 coupe title and registered it as a 54, all legal.
When I later gave it to friend he knew what he bought.
He, in later years, applied for a Wa. State, abandoned and lost title by all vin #’s and recieved a 53 title and registration.
Today in Wa the yards can buy abandoned and wrecked sell because they “legalized” sale by registration of once totaled vehicles under a special classification, and do not legaly have to mention title status to buyer
That 53 within two years was customised to such an extent as to cause even Studie nut to ask, “What is it”; answer: A 53 Stude Coupe with a 383 Chev small block eng and tranny, with Ford 9″ rear.
He sold it as that for 25K USD $.
Not a clone but most assuredly no longer a 53 Stude coupe.
In a way the honesty of poster shows he damn well knows what goes on by many a flipper and darker than shade tree home garage.
Reverse this, if a Registered Le Mans gets wrecked and one puts a donor wrecking yard GTO parts including all running gear is it still a Le Mans, is it illegal if sold as a LeMans.
Todays flipper scene has almost as bad as when as a youth I worked at junkyard, chop shop and fence auto rip off.
Just what the hell does “period correct” engine and parts mean?
Can that term not apply to sheet metal and interior parts as well?
I will leave theological-ethical philosophhy arguments over difference in meanings of “Legal”, “Immoral” and “Amoral”, unto each their own lives.
Now you know why I bash Florida car
dealers any chance I get. The problem
of selling vehicles with altered VINs and
titles is rampant here–so much so that
it scares me to do business with any
used car lot in Polk county. Few people
out there know that most ALL of the.used
cars sold in Florida are actually salvaged
cars with altered titles and VIN plates. My late FIL once worked at a car lot that
re-assembled junk cars and re-sold them
as low mileage trade ins. Bent frames,
cracked blocks, and bad trannies were
still–and are the order of the day here
in Florida and it’s due in large part to the
fact that the folks who are forced to buy
these recycled wrecks can’t, for some
reason, get a vehicle financed through a
bank or other institution. Wages here are
also very low and that too drives the
illigitamate vehice market here. Your
best bet here would be to demand a
Carfax report BEFORE you close the deal.
If the dealer won’t supply one, run Forrest
run the other way! While at a used car
lot in Orlando, I checked over a car that
Sis was intereseted in and not to my
surprise the car was indeed flood damaged. They wanted $500 down and
$475 amonth for 36 months. This was
on a ’96 Toyota Carolla sedan with about
200K miles on it. My advice to you:
Stay away from used car lots in Florida!
There are no safeguards for you if you
buy one of these lemons. Buy from a
private party if possible and then buy a
Carshield warranty plan.