The overall condition of this 1969 Pontiac GTO “The Judge” suggests it recently received some restoration work. However, a few minor details require attention, and addressing these could be a satisfying way for a new owner to while away some time in their workshop until the warm weather reappears. It is in sound mechanical health and should provide performance to match its good looks. The Judge is listed here on eBay in Pompano Beach, Florida. Bidding has raced to $12,400, which is short of the reserve. Eagle-eyed Barn Finder Larry D spotted this beauty, so thank you for that, Larry.
Before we delve too deeply into this classic, there is an issue that I must address. Although I may seem overly suspicious, part of me questions whether this 1969 Pontiac GTO is a genuine Judge. The most foolproof ways to establish the truth are via factory documentation (Window Sticker, Build Sheet) or the PHS. My opinion is based on a few details with this Pontiac that don’t match what would normally be expected on a genuine Judge. However, the Trim Tag may provide some insight. If it bears a Paint Code of 72, that indicates this car rolled off the line wearing the Carousel Red that currently graces its panels. I understand that only Judge variants of the GTO “officially” wore that color. However, the word “officially” is crucial because the occasional Special Order regular GTO has emerged finished in that paint shade. I believe the GTO may have undergone a recent restoration because its paint shows no evidence of flaws or defects. The panels are laser-straight, and this classic is rust-free. The exterior is clean, and the included photos confirm the floors are rock-solid. The trim looks excellent, and this Judge features the desirable and functioning hood tach. There are a couple of detail issues and faults worth noting. All 1969 Judges emerged from the factory on 14″ Rally II wheels without trim rings. That means the wheels on this car are wrong. They also featured a black-out grille, but this car’s grille is also the incorrect type. Most of the graphics and decals are correct, although it is missing the ones from the side of the Ram Air hood. The seller indicates the concealed headlamp mechanism doesn’t work, although they don’t clarify what is required to get it working.
This Pontiac comes with an interior trimmed in Black vinyl that presents beautifully. There is no evidence of wear or problems on the upholstered surfaces or carpet, and I doubt anyone has ever used the back seat. The dash and pad are spotless, with the bucket seats and console adding a touch of class and comfort. The original owner ordered this classic with air conditioning, but the compressor is missing from under the hood. Aftermarket changes include a different wheel and some gauges mounted under the dash. Those changes are reversible for a new owner seeking originality and are the only items potentially requiring attention.
The seller indicates this Judge features its numbers-matching 400ci V8, with the original owner selecting the three-speed automatic transmission and power assistance for the steering and front disc brakes. With 366hp at the driver’s disposal, this beauty would have stormed the ¼ mile in 14.3 seconds. The engine features a few cosmetic enhancements, but the lack of the original air cleaner hardware for the functional Ram Air hood has probably grabbed the attention of most enthusiasts. I’m also sure it has an aftermarket intake and carburetor. The seller provides no information on this aspect of the vehicle, which is another factor that caused me to question whether this is a genuine Judge. If the new owner can’t source an original Ram Air setup, high-quality reproduction kits retail for around $820. The seller doesn’t provide information on how well this Pontiac drives, but they supply this YouTube video. It features a walk-around, and we hear the car start and run. The 400 sounds fantastic, with no signs of problems or issues.
If this 1969 GTO is a genuine Judge, it is one of the most desirable American muscle cars. Tidy examples consistently sell for more than $50,000, although a pristine car can fetch $90,000. It would be easy to speculate on the reserve for this classic, but I found this car listed elsewhere for $47,988. That provides some insight into the seller’s expectations, but is it a price you’d be willing to pay?
Good write up Adam. Gives perspective buyers something to make sure they are getting their money’s worth. From my side, I always thought the rally wheels without the trim rings looked cheap on the cars. Good looking car even with the out of place parts.
Thank you so much for the feedback, bobhess. This is one of those cars where it is impossible to determine its authenticity from the supplied information, which is why I discussed the incorrect or missing parts. More research may prove it’s the real deal, but when someone is outlaying so much money, I like to think they will walk into the situation with their eyes wide open. I’ve seen people get bitten badly, and it’s never pleasant. I hope you continue enjoying our work. Cheers.
Carousel Red was available on a 69 GTO, and for that matter, on all 1969 Pontiacs as a special order. PHS stated that a “considerable” number of GTO’s were painted Carousel Red, I “knew a guy” that had a 69 GTO convertible in Carousel Red with a white top and interior. Also “knew a guy” with a 69 Firebird convert in Carousel red. How many non-judge Carousel Red cars survive today is anyone’s guess.
Here comes da’ Judge, here comes da’ Judge,,perhaps Adam isn’t familiar with 1970 American TV, but Flip Wilson was a genius, he was one funny guy. I don’t think Pontiac paid anyone for the royalties for the “Judge” name, but in case you missed it, this is the kind of crap we were subjected to as younguns. Even Paul Revere and the Raiders got involved.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5LIz7j-IvU
A guy I know in Wis. restored a ’69 Judge exactly like this. It was his moms car, she bought new, and got it as tribute to her. It was a bit rusty, but he was soon over his head in costs, and that was 10 years ago. He shelved the project several times, but eventually finished it, solely because of his mom. Point being, anyone thinking of restoring ANYTHING, costing way more than the current value, by all means, have at it,,or, just buy this. I all but guarantee, someone will be losing money on this, but what the heck, today,,their loss is someones gain, eh?
Are you thinking of Sammy Davis Jr.?
Sammy Davis Jr. on Rowan and Martin’s “Laugh-In.
I believe he was the 1st to use that phrase, but it was Wilson that seemed to get the most mileage out of it.
No I think it was Pigmeat Markham, who was the Judge on Laugh-In.
Or perhaps every single article written about a Judge doesnt need to reference the origin.
Dewey “Pigmeat” Markham originated the character. Markham, Davis, and Wilson all took a turn playing the judge on Laugh-In.
According to Jim Wangers, “Pigmeat” Markham, who had originated and copyrighted the “here comes da’ Judge” phrase, “had a very inflated idea of what it was worth, especially when he found out General Motors wanted to buy the use of it for advertising. We never used that phrase in any communications from Pontiac…” and Markham never got a penny from GM.
“THE JUDGE”! Pontiac never made a “Judge”?
It’s a shorthand reference. Even Pontiac sometimes omitted “The” immediately before “Judge” such as a page header inside their 1971 brochure which said “The ’71 Judge.” https://www.lov2xlr8.no/brochures/pontiac/71npt/bilder/39.jpg
and in charts such as in the 1970 Pontiac Performance brochure where it just read “Judge” without “The” https://www.lov2xlr8.no/brochures/pontiac/70pp/bilder/8.jpg
Even in the actual description of “The Judge” package(Sales Code 332; UPC Code WT1) in the 1970 Pontiac Accessorizer book, Pontiac used the shorthand version referring to “Judge stripes” not without “The.”
See page 7 of the 1970 Pontiac Accessorizer book: http://www.gt-37.org/gallery/index.php?/category/194#&ui-state=dialog
First Rule of Restoration – “2 & 3”
A restoration will always cost (at least) twice what you paid for it,
& take you (at least) three times as long as you originally thought.
a.k.a, Murphys Law,,
Did all Judges get the ram air air cleaner & hood?
Those wheels & tires LOOK like they are 14″s. I would think trim rings were a popular over the counter dealer accessory back in the day on many ’68 & ’69 GTOs.
Nonetheless, the younger the new owner is today for this car, the faster those will all be removed & replaced with huge wheels & rough riding very low profile blackwalls.
Yes, all Judges got Ram Air. Part of the judge package was the lack of trim rings. If this car was a real Judge, I’m sure they would spend the money and provide PHS. Its the easiest documentation to get of any car in all of the automotive world. This car is almost certainly a clone. And they wouldn’t be letting it go for $48k or so. It would be more like $70+ I would think given its condition and the fact its at a dealer.
Actually Pontiac didn’t put trim rings on any of it’s performance cars, those were saved for the full sized cars, even the SJ Gran Prix didn’t come with them you had to step up to the LJ I believe
The Rally ll wheels appear to be 15×7 in my opinion. When the Rally l and Rally ll wheels were ordered on any Pontiac, they came with trim rings, except the Judge. The Judge was originally conceived to be a budget version of the GTO to compete with the Road Runner, and they decided to forego trim rings to keep the cost low. Obviously the Judge didn’t end up as a budget version, but the lack of trim rings remained. Quite a few Judges ended up leaving the dealerships with trim rings installed at delivery.
1970-71 Trans Ams came with the 15″ rallye II wheels minus the trim rings. 71 also then offered the honeycomb wheel option. I think most people add them cause the do look better with than without. However in many cases the trim ring becomes an incorrect part.
Internet trim tag decoding site for a 1969 GTO indicate the car on eBay had a gold interior (trim ‘252’) and Limelight Green exterior (PNT ’59’). See trim tag photo on eBay listing. Other sites list the same codes for trim and paint.
http://www.69judgeregistry.com/public_html/Info.html
Here come the judge was written by Pigmeat Markham and on very early Laugh Ins you can see him do the bit as the judge.
Wow that’s a unique name “ Pigmeat” 😝 I remember Sammy Davis doing it
Colour selection does not mean it’s not a Judge. Chances of it being one are slim. It’s missing all aspects of being one. Ram Air, Ram air pulley, dash plate, and most importantly PHS documents. Sorry. Clean 242 though.
Wouldn’t a person be able to go by the serial number to answer the “Judge” questions? I never had a Judge but I had a 1968 and a 1969 GTO’S. I sold both of them cause I had to pay hospital bill when my daughter was born. I grieve for both them but when first married and you don’t have the “pot or the window to throw it out” you can’t take care of classic car!
So maybe I’m wrong but I always went by serial number.
By serial number I assume you are referring to the VIN. By itself the VIN can tell you if it is a real GTO, but not if it’s a Judge. However, with the VIN you can obtain PHS docs which will include detailed info on the car, when and where it was built, and what options it was built with.
I had a a 1969 Firebird that was painted carousel red at the factory… I also had a real 1969 carousel red judge that was on another website as being the most rusty Judge in America. Also, this gto doesn’t have the Judge glove box emblem. I don’t remember the breakdown but I think vins after a certain number didn’t have the glove box emblem because the factory ran out of them. But the easiest way to tell if it’s a real Judge is to open the trunk lid and see if it stays open.
The Judge was introduced in in December 1969 or maybe January of 1970, can’t remember. The glove box emblems didn’t make it to the early cars due to some production issues, they began appearing sometime in February of 1970.
I was a senior in high school 1968-1969 … I remember going to West Point candidacy school in February, 1969 … when I came back my best friend told me “Remember the Judge we saw ? … it’s Bucky’s” … Bucky was a junior jock whose mother was also a teacher… the Judge was definitely out in Feb, 1969, well ahead of Feb 1970, probably coming out in Dec, 1968 …
Jon.in.Chico, yes, correct. My fingers got ahead of my brain. I graduated High school in 1970. The months are correct though.
The GTO Judge, and the Firebird Trans Am, were introduced to the press on December 8, 1968 at Riverside Raceway.
The first cars reaching dealers in early 1969. I recall seeing one at my local dealer in February when I was picking up a part for one of my Pontiacs(my wife and I had a ’58 Star Chief 4-door hardtop and a ’61 Bonneville wagon).
The fact that the seller didn’t pony up the 75.00 for PHS documentation tells me it’s a fake. Does the VIN at least start with 242 to make it a real GTO?
The seller isn’t exactly upfront about the car’s heritage, but he does state in the description “Judge Trim” which is an admission it isn’t a Judge. Anyone looking to purchase any collectible Pontiac that does not have PHS is taking a huge risk. Nice appearing car except for the steering wheel…
It’s not a real judge, there’s a lot wrong with it/missing then what was said. Anyone could have ordered that paint color, it was not just for the judge, the rim rings, the non-blacked out grill is a big one. All Ram air GTO’s regardless if Judge or not had a blacked out grill. It would have also come with not just a V8 but either a RAIII or a RAIV (matching numbers RAIV’s are 6 figure cars b.t.w.) Those motors alone, especially the RAIV go for well over the asking price of this whole car! There should be a pull knob under the steering wheel that says “Ram Air” you pull it to open the hood scoops/no interior badges, wrong steering wheel however. This is how I know it’s NOT a judge…The PHS paperwork – it’s not wrong. You never ever buy a classic Pontiac without it. Do you wanna know why its not wrong? Because it’s the actual paperwork from the factory when the car was built – it’s what was handed to the people the actually built the car. It’s a phony alllllll day….
As the author states, it is impossible to know for sure if this car left the factory with the Judge option or not, though I agree that the lack of PHS docs is a red flag. Unless proven otherwise, I’d suggest potential bidders evaluate this car’s value as if it is not a genuine Judge.
Carousel Red was available on non-Judge GTOs, but it was a special order and not listed as a regular color option, so such cars are pretty rare.
The trim rings could easily be added by the selling dealer or later, and were, so their inclusion on this car is not meaningful.
The grills were painted flat black on Judges only. The grills of non-Judge ram air cars were not blacked out, and were the same as other non-Judge 1969 GTOs.
The lack if a glove box Judge emblem is meaningless. Depending on build date, some early Judges did not receive them. Plus they can obviously get lost over time and/or left off during restoration.
The Ram Air pull know is indeed missing. Interestingly, though, the car does appear to have a ram air hood.
So in the end, caveat emptor.
Beautiful,nice not a real judge?29000$. Merry Christmas!
I could be mistaken, but I don’t think that any GTO Judge had hidden headlights available.
They were optional on the ’69, same as for any GTO. Selecting The Judge neither mandated nor precluded selecting the hidden headlamps option.
Judges could have fixed or hidden headlights.
Back in 1986 my buddy had a carousel red judge with hideaway headlights sitting in the field beside his barn. He said it was his fathers, who was in prison. So I asked my buddy to go into the house and ask his mother how much she would sell the car for. He came out and said $1500. Well $1500 could have been $100,000 to me (a 16 year old kid). So I reluctantly passed on it. Two months later I saw a truck with New Jersey license plates pulling it down the road on a flatbed trailer, never to be seen again…
I wonder if any ’71-’72 model year FACTORY JUDGES got the ultra rare ducktail rear spoiler!
https://classiccars.com/listings/view/1505630/1972-pontiac-gto-for-sale-in-north-royalton-ohio-44133
&
https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0514-189571/1972-pontiac-lemans-gt/
Pontiac issued Car Distribution Bulletin No. 71-71 canceling the GTO Judge on February 11, 1971, months befofre the ducktail spoiler option came to be. The ducktail spoiler option started and stopped during the first week of 1972 model year production(some claim it was the first day!) when the mold broke. Only two cars(both were LeMans that did not have the GTO option) had the ducktail spoiler factory installed. One GTO owner is known to have managed to buy one over-the-counter at a delership
Ironically, the spoiler is reproduced today
https://www.thepartsplaceinc.com/product/1972/1972-pontiac-gto-lemans-tempest-ducktail-spoiler-hardtop-3-piece-set/18496
&
https://www.thepartsplaceinc.com/product/1972/1972-pontiac-gto-lemans-tempest-ducktail-spoiler-convertible-3-piece-set/18810
But the front bumper brackets for the heavy front bumpered ’70-73 firebird are still not! – ridiculous.
Asking price just shy of $50k:
https://www.classiccarsinflorida.com/vdp/19470951/Used-1969-Pontiac-GTO-Judge-for-sale-in-Pompano-Beach-FL-33069
I appreciate the insight when reference to the trim rings. We have a Judge and a 70 GTO I pictured nose to nose, and noted the 70 GTO wheels with trim rings really popped, and thought the Judge needed them…then I was informed the Judge may not have come with trim rings