This GTO Judge has been sitting on jack stands since 1990 and the odometer is only showing 42k miles. The seller doesn’t state that the mileage is correct, but they believes that the plug wires are original to the car. That’s probably not a good way to verify mileage or much else. This is a rare and highly desirable muscle car though so it’s definitely worth a look. It’s located in Jasper, Georgia and is listed here on eBay where bidding is starting to heat up.
Unfortunately, the mileage doesn’t matter much here because this car is in sad shape. The windshield is gone and there’s a bunch of body rot. It looks like most of the important pieces are there though. New sheet metal is a lot cheaper and easier to find than a correct engine and transmission. The seller claims that the car is 95% complete and that there’s a bunch of parts sitting in plastic tubs. That’s great to hear, but someone is really going to have their work cut out for them.
Unless you are going to Flintstone it, some new floor pans are going to be on the shopping list. I’d want to take a good look at the underside of this car to make sure none of the suspension mounts or other critical structures are rusted through. Luckily, replacement metal is easy to get for these cars, but it’s still going to take some skill to replace it all. Plan on bringing your angle grinder, welder, and a bag of money.
I don’t mean to discourage anyone from taking on this project. It does have some great options and should be rescued. I just don’t want to sugar coat a difficult situation. Barn finds are great, but restoration projects like this aren’t for everyone. They take a lot of dedication and money. Otherwise we will see this car come back to market in the same or worse condition. With that said, let’s discuss what makes this muscle machine so great.
Many of the check boxes were checked when this GTO was ordered. There’s an optional automatic transmission attached to the back of that huge 400 cubic inch V8. It doesnt have Ram Air IV, but with 366 horsepower, it was not slouch. Someone marked the hood mounted tach, center console, power steering, and front power disc (very good idea) option boxes too. Finally, the Judge package added orange paint, special graphics, blacked-out grill, and a big rear spoiler.
This was a nice cruiser when new and it has become an icon today. Do you have what it’s going to take to resurrect this poor specimen though? Only you can be the Judge of that.
“Huge 400 Cubic Inch Engine”? Really? Geez…
When Dodge had 426 Hemi’s and 440’s (in 2 flavors 1) Brutal 2) Brutal-er?
Ford had the Boss 429, and the 428 CobraJet…
The Corvette had SIX different 427’s.
The Pontiac was nice, and Royal Bobcat did the most that could be done with them. But HUGE? Really?
I forgot the 1969 Hurst Olds. It had a Ram Air 455.
Any of the above would easily put their hands on the Pontiac 400’s forehead and take its lunch money.
And 454 chevelles….
+Dan – We were talking about what was available in 1969. 454’s weren’t available for another year in the Chevelles and Corvettes. But you get the idea. For muscle cars, 400 inches was nice. Nothing more.
The Ram Air III also had much more horse power than what it was rated. Ram Air IV was more about the Ram air system they were planning on installing…drawing air four separate ways into the carb. It turned out to be too costly but the name stuck. The Ram Air IV had High-Lift cam shaft and round port heads. Both were strong motors even though they were only 400 cubic inches. http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/usa9ctl0l2pf
I’m sure the used the same method to rate both motors horsepower so I’m sticking to the 4 or 5 horsepower difference.
Ken, you are correct on the origins of the Ram Air IV name. Of course in terms of names, the Ram Air III was not called that, but rather just Ram Air. The III was added by enthusiasts years later. The Ram Air III also was really just a regular 400 HO with the Ram Air ductwork installed. And of course the Ram Air engines weren’t really Ram Air at all, since the scoops were within the boundary layer, so it was really just an outside air induction system.
I have driven several Ram Air III cars and two Ram Air IV cars. No one who has experience with these engines and has driven cars with both would ever believe the Ram Air IV was only a few horsepower more. Those round port heads and the cam add substantial power. I would like to see stock examples of both on a dyno. I’d suspect at least a 40 hp difference. The Ram Air IV was substantially underrated in terms of power. The Ram Air III was not. The ratings were not derived in a scientific manner, but for marketing and political reasons.
Various 1968 RAII 400 Firebirds have beaten many of these in the stock drags.
RAIV Name–I do not believe that the original ducting plan is what named the RAIV. I have a picture of the 4 inlets used early on with a different lower ram air pan, and it was not installed on a RAIV engine. The RAIV was not in production until Feb 1969–months later. I believe the RAI is considered to be the ’67 ram air engines til May 1968 when the RAII round port engines arrived. The RAIII was used in 1969 & ’70 along with the RAIV showing up later in February ’69. It just seems to be a numbering sequence. Then the RAV over the counter engine came out a little later.
Michael Staley in NC, keep in mind that until the Ram Air IV, all the Ram Air engines were simply called “Ram Air.” The II and III are markers that enthusiasts and publications began using later on when referring back to these various engines. It is well documented that the “IV” moniker was due to the planned four-inlet system. It was dropped well before production, but the name stuck.
Steven Visek, please take a look at the title of this 1968 Pontiac Motor Division advertisement. If May 1968 marked the RA II, then the prior engine was the RA I. Likely the next was the RA III and what followed? I agree that Pontiac rarely called them by these numbers, but here is proof positive that they did. Remember, this is the first half of 1968 and well before the RAIV engine.
I do see where some people believe that the RAIV was named because of the 4 air intakes that were proposed, and maybe that is correct. I would like to see the documentation that proves this.
On the other hand, you can see proven documentation from the ad above that PMD did name the May 1968 round port 400 the RA II. And it just so happened that the second following ram air engine was named the RAIV. And I should just think that this sequential numbering is a coincidence?
One other point about the Ram Air II ad above. This shows that PMD INITIATED the sequential numbering of these ram air engines. This ad announced the next one.
I’m sorry to pile on, and there is likely some truth for the 4 inlets naming also.
Michael Staley in NC: Wow! I stand corrected. I did a bit more research and have read that it was also apparently referred to as the Ram Air II in a May 16, 1968 Pontiac sales promotional bulletin, though I haven’t found it posted anywhere to see. Please point it out if you find additional period examples of this engine being called the “Ram Air II.” Very interesting!
By the way, do keep in mind that 1) development of the Ram Air IV was well along before any ads with the Ram Air II would have been created; and 2) in terms of the engines themselves, the Ram Air IV was really the successor to this Ram Air II and the 1969 Ram Air engine(III) was the successor to the earlier Ram Air(I) engine.
I still haven’t found any period reference to “Ram Air III” but that is no surprise if there isn’t one. I assume it was no accident that the “IV” cars so said on their hood decals while the “III” cars just said “Ram Air.” With the Ram Air IV, the engine itself was special, while the “III” was essentially the 1968 400 HO engine plus outside air induction(though some did get the 744 cam). I’m not knocking the “III” as it is a great engine, but it is so because the 400 HO is a great engine. The II and IV were just different beasts, with a bunch of speed parts and more highly strung.
Thanks again for the info. I always like to learn new things, and realizing I can get it wrong sometimes is good too, though I’d never admit that to my wife! :-)
“The Pontiac Sales Bulletin (dated May 16, 1968) announcing the availability of the Ram Air II engines states the following: “It is designated Ram Air II and replaces the original Ram Air option.” The use of the word “replaces” suggests that…..it was probably a running change without overlap.”
— Jeff Lovich, June 2007 issue of The Legend (GTOAA)
Thanks, Steven. I agree with what you said. I don’t think “Ram Air III” would have looked very good on the scoops, but I have not seen it called that by PMD. The info I have has increased greatly since the internet came along. I got my third week of January ’69 Judge in the late 70’s when I was still a teenager. I wondered for years why it did not have a Judge emblem on the glove box and why it had a 7028273 carb, and later why it had a November ’68 dated RAIV distributor in it. The PY forum and other Pontiac friends cleared all that up eventually.
Michael Staley FYI
https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mus/2010/07/Pistol-vs–Cannon/3474141.html
BTW the decal in the pic was a custom job(per the caption for the pic in the article).
Steven Visek, that is a great car in the article. Yes, people like TriPowerVette probably want to deny that Pontiac’s like this even exist. HE ALREADY HAS DONE SO ABOVE!!! LOL These RAII Firebirds are as fast as any of the cars. I guess he’ll begin making excuses soon if he sees this. The Chevy/Dodge guys cannot stand that these Firebirds beat them so often.
H-O Racing had a SD Firebird that was a national record holder. The old ’62 dual 4-barrel SD cars with aluminum fenders and bumper are also fairly fast. I still have a set of NOS early SD rods purchased with some RAIV stuff I bought in the mid-80’s.
Then subtract for the fixed fan for another hp loss.
That is an original flex fan used on the Ram Air engines and some others possibly.
TriPowerVette. Your automotive knowledge is impressive, but why do you have to sound like such a prick all the time? Your comments are filled with negative remarks. A Difference of opinion is one thing, attacking the writers isn’t necessary.
+Michael – I am not sure it’s ALL the time, but I will try to be less prick-ly from now on. It’s just when these Staff Writers try to say that 223 H.P. is “a lot of grunt”, or 400 inches is “huge”, I get frustrated, and it shows in my writing. Sorry.
The huge doesn’t matter. It is the factory tick list and the times that count anyway. I have had two 69 gto rags..both clean and one frame off. Fairly fast. My friend had a factory 340 dart that would eat up big blocks. My 97 SS Camaro was really quick and a rag top. My current 09 viper aero rag is a monster and that is big in cubes boy..You do come off as negative alot though. No big deal though.
I wonder how many gto’s were stuffed with 421 and 428’s by Royal Pontiac for test vehicles for the press back then? Pontiac knew the value of marketing better than anyone, or at least a few key players did who worked there. I also wonder what became of those “ringers” after the press had there fun.
+Troy s – Yours is insight that only one who was there could be expected to have… Spot on.
It’s not always the size that matters. That was the largest available in the Judge at that time.
Looks like a job for Smashed Monkey Garage. The car needs to be saved, but the cost is something Dennis Collins will have to bankroll.
Buy it now 22k i dont see it.
Again one of my all time faves. My first experience was in high school tech. a teacher had a 69 carousel red one with over 200 K mi. and we worked on it often, I’ve wanted one ever since. one like this would be the ONLY way I could ever have one. I can do the work,just too many projects now.Hope it goes to a good home.
I like the 69’s better than the 70 I had but this sad GTO just needs way too much work for the $15,800 high bid at the moment and reserve not met.
My friend Rick had a 69 judge black on black 4 speed. Was put in restoration shop august of last year. Car was almost finished by December of last year when he showed up at the shop to check the progress. He was happy to see the car in paint. As he went to leave he dropped to the floor with a massive heart attack and died at 45. His parents decided to finish the car and put it in their heated garage where it sits today. Sad.
Gregory these kind of stories are always interesting, BUT I want to hear what the lesson learned is by Rick dying. Don’t do restorations IF you have a bad heart? What is the meaning of his parents keeping the car that killed their son? Good story but I’d like the hear what you think the point is.Sad? That’s all?.
First of all nobody new he had a heart problem not even him. Second. His parents finished the car and are keeping it out of sentimental value I guess. There was no lesson here fool . I saw the judge advertised here and it made me think of my friend and how much he liked that car.
Gregory, condolences on the loss of your friend. BTW I truly doubt Roger meant any offense; I think he was just wondering if there was some greater meaning that perhaps you were trying to express. Sometimes the written word(at least in short posts) is not the best medium for expression as there is not ability to hear inflection. It’s easy for the reader to see an intent that is different from what was intended, especially when the subject matter is one that is emotionally sensitive. I hope you and his parents get the opportunity to drive the car too, remembering a friend and son who was so passionate about such a cool car. Peace.
So how hard is it to swap some parts & VIN tags with a nice same year Le Mans? (not advocating, just asking)
Not that hard Mike … The difficulty comes when your ruse is discovered and you do hard time in a federal pen …..VIN fraud is a FELONY!!
Unless u have someone from the d.o.t to verify the switch……how do you think they “rebody” cars with all the “new classic car” bodies being made camaro tri 5 chevy mustangs…….there not all being built as one off custom pro touring cars….many those new bodies have factory vin plates……had a lincoln with the vin on the dr car was side swiped had to change the dr inturn switching vins….called dot rhey came out watched da swap…..took old vin to dispose of….so depends how you do it….swaped alot of vins…depends how you go about it……a buddy has a 65 ss impala barn fell on crushed da roof found a 2 dr belair for the shell….same thing called dot both had clean titles switched the ss vin and data plate to the belair they took all the legal stuff fot the belair…it can be done time and money is the issue……if you do it legal it is not a felony…..if you do it in your garage so no on else knows……you better have a laywer on retainer
+Poncho pusher – I know you and I have disagreed in the past, but when you’re right, you’re right. Good info for the uninformed as well. Thumbs up.
There is more to this than some list. There is a vin on the frame and a hidden vin also. If you have the PHS sheet, it show the options of the original car and original color that will need to match the data plate and the car. A Judge has several things that are not easily matched. One of those is the holes in the trunk lid. They were stamped at the factory and are round–not oblong from drilling them out. An original trunk lid, trunk rods and wing will hold the lid perfectly still when raised half way up. Repo wings are plastic–unlike the originals. The block and transmission have the vin of course. The carbs were unique to the Ram Air engines and had only certain dates. Then the distributor, etc, etc, etc. I could go on for several paragraphs. The uninformed may be easily fooled but not all.
It’s amazing how much these cars bring in this kind of condition. Still worth saving…….restore and hold on to it.
yes it is. restored it should bring 75,000 plus. i’m lucky to still have mine but it is in good enough condition to keep it a survivor car. survivor car are actually bringing pretty good dollars. as for the 400 ram air III…it was a good track performer at the time and the 400 was the largest you could get in a goat at the time.
owning a real Judge everyone is correct. All the decals are in the wrong places. The cars came with the decals installed at the factory, not shipped separately. Both the Ram Air III and the Ram Air IV are known to be in under rated in horsepower.
Spot on! There have been a number of dyno tests done over the years(search the internet) and the ’69 Ram Air 400(now referred to as the Ram Air III) came in with 405-410 at the flywheel. The Ram Air IV engines have tested at 435-445 at the flywheel.
Of course state of tune and driver have a lot to do with real world performance, which is likely why the more finicky Ram Am IV often doesn’t show up as well in drag races, especially on the street where the races are typically much shorter and much more torque and tune dependent.
The Ram Air III, which is the 400 HO with the outside air induction setup, is a great street engine.
I would suggest the best street engine ever put in the GTO is actually the ’71- 455 HO, combining the 455’s awesome torque with the aluminum intake and round port heads. Haven driven them all the ’71- 455 HO was the strongest; only a well-tuned Ram Air IV could clip it in the quarter mile. It’s no accident that the 455 HO is the Poncho engine of choice for FAST and the Pure Stock Drags.
I can attest, the ’71 455HO is a brute (I have one in my ’73 Grand Am), but very difficult to launch with all that torque…I would think the 400 would be more rev happy and easier to launch? We always want what we don’t have!
This looks like a fun project. Cutting and welding sheet metal is very therapeutic.
+Dan – not to mention grinding, and don’t forget sourcing the parts that aren’t there or are unusable.
One time I was preparing to restore a 1971 440 Six Pack Super Bee, and it was one of a VERY FEW Mr. Norm’s Dodges. It required a decal on the vertical upper left part of the trunk lid. The repros were NOT the same. I had to get one NOS on eBay (thank God for eBay).
But it’s all about the details.
Does not look to be true Judge. Has a Lemans rear bumper
Why would you say it’s a LeMans rear bumper?
While it is possible this individual rear bumper came off a LeMans, it would be pretty difficult to tell since I believe the Judge used the same rear bumper as both the standard GTO and the LeMans.
This wouldn’t necessarily mean it’s not a real Judge. Perhaps rear bumper was damaged and a LeMans bumper was what was available. For example, I had a 61 300G that had a Windsor grille on it. The original 300G grille had been damaged and because 300G grilles, which are specific to the 300G, are very hard to locate, so a Windsor grille was installed.
LeMans and GTO’s both used the same rear bumpers!
What Michael said….
Already over bidded
up to 18k now,BIN is 22 k. Somebody has their work cut out for them but I have seen worse restored. Good luck to the new owner–
Here come da judge, here come da judge. Another car that made the 60’s fun!!!
So many dumb asses in this world.
Why the f**k would you treat something you own like this?
GXP,
In the late ’70s and early ’80s muscle cars were beaters. My high school parking lot had a Chevelle SS396, a Buick GS, a 390 go-pack AMX, and others. My next door neighbor dated a guy with a Judge. My dad had a ’66 GTO that he bought for $500.
These were rust belt daily drivers. Primer spots, rusty quarters, vinyl seats falling apart at the pleats. The kids beat the hell out of them. Actually my dad beat the hell out of his, and he was about 40. They were just old used cars, with only the gearheads interested in them.
By 1990 when this car was allegedly parked, these had collector interest. But by then many of them looked like this one. Or worse.
– John
And there is the hose laying next to the first shot of a dripping wet hunk of rust. JimBob, you just never was one for learnin….
Obviously rode hard and put away wet.
Hi GXP, don’t know if your comment was sarcastic or if you are serious, but I’ve said before, this car and many more like it, imo, are thankfully still here, regardless of how people may have mistreated it, by some miracle it escaped the crusher, and that probably took someone saying , “no, it’s not for sale”, countless times even in this condition, to keep the real dummies from scrapping it out, to put that 25 bucks in their pocket, so my hats off to the person or persons that kept this car here for this amount of time, to them, thank you……..
+Ron Y – The Super Bee I mentioned above was saved from the crusher itself. Hard to believe, but the owner had a fender bender on the left rear quarter and *drove it * to the junk yard, where they parted it. My friend bought the stripped corpse, and I bought it from him.
Thereupon, began assembling the parts necessary to restore.
One of the best stories was the Air Grabber hood. The junk yard sold it to one of our car-buddy friends (who lived about 2 blocks from us), who sold it a guy in Saudi Arabia. The guy in Saudi put it on some Charger or other and drove it around for a while, then sold it to a guy in New York. He drove it around for a while, then wrecked it (not in the front, thank God), and sold it to Year One, in Atlanta.
One day, I was reading Hemmings, and saw an original Air Grabber hood advertised (they didn’t reproduce them at the time). I bought it, and had it shipped to Arizona, which completed the hood’s round the world tour, where it ended up back on the same car (which had never left Phoenix) on which it started life! …And I had the custom’s marks to prove it.
I miss finding these old warriors, paying nothing for them, then returning them to some semblance of their former greatness. Good times.
A ’69 GTO has a different nose than the Lemans. The rear bumper was the same. You can also tell it is a GTO from the VIN. The window sticker shows the Judge option. Since that was an option, verification that the car left the factory as a Judge is the hard part. If you really want to confirm it was a Judge, you can contact PHS Automotive Services Inc. I used the rear bumper from a ’70 LeMans donor car on my ’70 GTO. The exact same part.
Are you saying it’s a Lemans bumper because it’s chrome. All GTO’s had rear chrome bumpers. Only the front was an Endura (rubber)) bumper.
you are completely correct
Well I can promise you 100% that it is the real deal. I am the owner and I too was curious. So I had PHS verify the VIN and Motor details and everything came back perfect. I also had it verified by local Law Enforcement. Yes this car has rust in the body but they only made 1534 with an automatic. I could only post 24 pics on ebay so have the rest of the parts in tubs. Man had 3 cars. 66 GTO Conv, 69 GTO Judge, and a 1976 SE 455 Trans Am Black and Gold 1 of 319 hardtops. Took 3 hours cutting trees and briers just to get to the Barn/Garage. I based my price on what a employee told me that works at PHS. Ball park that is in this condition. But the truth is it is worth what someone is willing to pay. Notice in my ad that I well personal and professional inspection is welcome.
I remember when I was in school there was a chick whose dad bought her one! Yeah, a high school girl drove one! It was equipped with big motor 4 speed and everything else that you could get on one of these! There may be some readers out there who are familiar with it! Okay, I will give a hint about where I went to school! Only because I would love to hear from someone else who knows about it to! I went to high school south of Tampa FL. The name of the school was and is East Bay High! I always was jealous of the girl who drove it while I cruised around in my 1964 Rambler Ambassador! I think that she was a very spoiled girl! Wished I knew what happened to her car! Every time I see a Judge for sale I think about her!
BTW there was no “big motor” option as all 1969 GTO engines were 400s. Do you mean it had the Ram Air IV instead of the Judge’s standard Ram Air III?
I just know it was very fast! I watched it blow away a Corvette on East Bay Road! In fact in front of Bull Frog Creek State Park! Back then we had a quarter mile marked off we would race our cars there! There was actually a county sheriff who lived in the park once in awhile he would park and watch us! I bet you couldn’t do it now days! That area has been engulfed by Tampa! It’s a shame because that area was so cool! I wouldn’t move back if they gave me the whole state of Florida!
Most of the information I’ve been reading lists the 455 as an option on the goat. When I took my 70 into a dealer to get checked out he said it was too bad the original owner didn’t take the 455 option.Also told me there had been an Endura delete option that would have given a chrome front bumber
Alford, FYI the 455 HO became optional in November 1969 on 1970 model year GTOs. It was not a hi-po engine option like the Ram Air IV, but had excellent torque. The 455 HO in the 1971/72 GTO and Firebirds had the same name but was much more of a performance engine.
theRam Air IV has 4 more horsepower! It’s just a rare option.
Ken, the Ram Air IV was “rated” at 4 more horsepower. In reality it was at least 10x that.
Alford, about the Endura-delete option, you are correct that was available, but only for the 1968 GTO. The 1968 chrome front bumper GTOs are quite rare. BTW, if you wanted the hidden headlights in 1968, the Endura bumper was mandatory.
However, on the Special Order Paint Code cars(Pink Mist, Windward Blue, Marigold Yellow and Carnival Red) apparently the chrome bumpers were standard since they could not color-match the Endura bumpers on those cars.
In 1969 apparently this got changed up a bit, where Special Order paint cars got the Endura bumper, but painted white. I have not heard of a ’68 Special Paint car with an Endura bumper(white or otherwise) or any ’69 GTO with a chrome bumper, but never say never!
It may be running around that little dirt track over there as a “street stock” !
+Big Drag – Is your real name Don Rickles, and were you in “Beach Blanket Bingo”?
The remains of Warren Oats judge from the movie “two Lane Blacktop”! Just another marketing ploy from Pontiac aimed at the in crowd. Heavy car too. Of all these dolled up type of muscle cars I like the Buick GSX the best.
+Troy s – I may have missed something, so please excuse me if so, but Oats’ GTO was a 1970.
As an aside, I just recently was able to buy on eBay (of course) one of the VERY limited edition “Two Lane Blacktop” Collector’s Edition DVDs, from Anchor Bay, in the large tin case. Mine is number 04397 out of 15,000. It has the insert and booklet, as well as the PEWTER 1955 CHEVY KEY CHAIN! Yay! (It is almost always missing.)
This DVD replaces my bootleg, foreign import VHS of the movie, which I have had for years.
Finally; of course you like GSX’s better. You are obviously a gentleman of discernment and taste.
BTW – My brother’s brother-in-law has like 3 of them.
Another funny story; that is how my brother met his wife of some-odd 35 years.
I was driving along in a BAP delivery truck – see the story in another thread about Datsun Truck – when I saw a Yellow GSX go by the other way. I ran him down, and got his number for my brother – since of the two of us, my brother was more into Buicks than I was. Well, it turned out that the GSX driver had a gorgeous sister, and she and my brother just hit it off.
If it hadn’t been for a mutual interest in the old warriors, my brother would have had a very different family all these years.
Here is motor info on this car.
it would cost more than its worth to do that 69, what a shame, some meat head would leave this to rot
Look at the ship-to dealer on the photo of the invoice. Packer Pontiac. Just another Michigan rust-bucket. Somehow, long afterward, it migrated to Georgia. Parts car, and not all of those appear to be there.
Been in ga since 78. FAR from a parts car.
Guys in the business know how to tackle restorations like this all day long. Since it’s mostly labor, using cheap shop hands, it’s a lot less expensive than some think. These aren’t complicated cars, and nearly everything is available with one-click. Plus, guys in the business have been stockpiling parts for years. You will see this car again, and someone will make a profit off it.
This was repainted already. The Judge logo decal on the fender is located in the wrong place, it should be on the front of the fender, and The Judge logo decal on the trunk should actually be on the rear spoiler, which by the way, the spoiler is missing in the photo with the gas can. You can also see overspray on the door jamb picture.
That is what made the red flag go up before I bought it. Decals in the wrong place. I posted a pic of the original strips inside the door jamb is the reason for that picture.. Once PHS verified it I ended up buying all 3 cars he had. I put the dog house, hood, spoiler back on it to show I had all the body parts. Car is not rusted that bad but the floors and rear quarters. Very build able car. It is not like you can just run out and buy one anywhere.
Man..I’m glad someone pointed that out. I wanted to but I was in a fetal position worrying that TriPowerVette would bring down the hammer on me! lol
Wow, reserve not met @$15,800. I must be missing something.
What are you missing??
Best thing going for it is the paint color. That’s what most people associate with 69 Judges is the carousel orange color. I could have bought a #1 condition frame off restored 69 Judge, no expense spared last year for 55k. The only reason it sold so cheap is that is was not carousel orange, it was blue. It will cost more to restore this one than it will be worth in a long time. But if it is what you want then go for it!
it’s called carousel red.
So is 1970 model year when they officially named the Ram Air III and had the decals on the hoodscoops?
As far as I can tell, Pontiac never named it “Ram Air III” but rather just “Ram Air.” The decals just say “Ram Air” for 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, and 1972. Only the 1969-1970 Ram Air IV got decals with the Roman numerals.
My 70 GTO came with Ram Air III lettering on the scoops. When I went in to get a replacement foam for the aircleaner parts guy asked if it was Ram III or Ram IV. Also Barrett Jackson has been marking the difference as have several reports. Guess it’s one of those odd things that happen in the car industry like varied models/accessories available in different states and countries.
Did you buy your ’70 new? I have seen dozens of ’69-’70 Ram Air GTOs and not a single one has had the “III” on the car anywhere. Obviously an owner or used car dealer can add whatever they like, but I’d be shocked if it really came new like that.
I’d also be curious when the parts guy asked you that. Was this back in the day(1969-early ’70s)?
Also, while I know the foam for the Firebird is different depending on the engine, I thought the GTO foams were the same for both engines, though I wouldn’t swear to it.
I was with the 1st owner when he bought it new. I bought from him in 80/ Now it’s in Germany someplace. I’ve seen several others with the same marking. Do a google on ” 1970 Ram Air 3 GTO check what comes up. Lost a lot of my car/carshow pics and military pics when the ex took off. I’ll check around if any are left.
I did as you suggested and couldn’t find any examples with the “III” included in the decal. If you can find an example, please post it. I’d be curious to see one.
Also looked at some of the Pontiac repro sellers and none have it. Also checked the foam and it appears to be the same for both engines(III and IV) and for both years(1969 and 1970) for the GTO.
I believe any III in a decal was not a factory item, but it would be nice if that was true.