For the Pontiac GTO, the sales peak came in 1966 when nearly 97,000 cars were sold. The original forecast for 1964 had been 5,000 copies! 1966 was the last year for the 389 cubic inch V8 and the Tri-Power set-up. The seller’s GOAT lives under a big black tarp and may be an original Tri-Power, but a stuck 400 engine is in the car today. Needing both mechanical and cosmetic attention, this once-potent Poncho is available in Jupiter, Florida, and here on eBay, where the opening bid is $10,000 has yet to be cast. Thumbs to tip finder Mitchell G.!
The seller provides the VIN for this car, but original engine displacement or carburetion is not one of the digits tracked. If you assume this was an original Tri-Power car with a 4-speed manual, the factory population may have been around 12,000 copies. While triple 2-barrels sit atop the current motor, that’s a 400, which would have taken over for the 389 in 1967. The odometer reading is 20,400 miles, but a safe bet is that a “1” would be in front of that if the instruments went past 100k miles in those days.
There’s no mention of how long this car has been parked and/or covered up, but enough for rust to be an issue on the floors and trunk pan. The seller says some patches may rectify those matters as you’re enroute to a full restoration. However, the photos don’t do a deep dive into those areas.
While the 400 is seized, the manual transmission and rear end are said to turn freely. To help you with reviving this project, the seller also has a period-correct Tri-Power 389. There is mention of a “4-speed block”, back seats, and extra bumpers, which we assume are in addition to what’s still bolted to the Pontiac. This GTO once wore shiny burgundy paint with a matching interior, but only the bucket seats appear to have held up.
Well, that was fast. Listing is pulled…
Too bad because it would have been interesting to see where the bidding landed.
Edit: the seller just relisted the car with a $13K buy it now option.
I hope he provided more and better pictures.
GTO anything means bend over in the eyes of the sellers. This is a parts car, maybe.
The thing about all of the garage finds that will never make it as quick clean-up-and-sell “patina” car flips is that the people who have the tools, shop, skill, and money to deal with something like this are all over 60, and they already have a couple of projects exactly like this out behind the shed that they will never get round to, and then those go on market, too.
Soon you’ll have to give them away to people willing to come and get it.
The reality of the muscle car hobby, a twilight sunset. The other side, there are people financially capable of paying extremely high prices to satisfy a life long desire to own or restore a nice classic car. Their dream car, or even a warehouse full of dream cars. Jay Leno is only one of many.
The rest of us must accept, we either missed our chance, could not afford it then and may never be able or willing to pay up, or we need to get busy working on our project(s), or pay up to compete for a nice one.
But no mistake, we are watching the sunset.
The next generation are looking for something else, the car of their dreams. Recall, those collectors before us who were excited by and paid up for a Model A or T, a Mercury, Lincoln, or theTri 5. We did not understand that. The 1960’s and 70’s muscle… these are 60+ year old cars, interest is aging out, going down fast. Enjoy it while it lasts, it has peaked and will possibly wane another decade. We should all focus on getting our projects finished and enjoy them or pay up for one already done. Consider who will care for or sell them after we are done.
Right on. The pristine examples of muscle with big blocks and matching everything and original carpet smell and all of that are now owned by guys who have their mechanic on speed dial. They are the “look what I have” guys wearing bidder lanyards at Mecum shows.
They brought two cars to the auction to sell, and will go home with two other ones to play with a little bit, then park them in the shop/man cave museum/showroom, along with their pristine porcelain signs on their wall and the restored gas pumps. Rinse & repeat.
Yeah, they used to turn wrenches for fun and got laid in the back seat of a muscle car at 18, long before they became multi-millionaire contractors. Good for them. Seriously. It’s a great country, and you made it. Enjoy it. I would.
But they have no interest in this rat trap stuff unless their shop manager says they need it for parts. And the guys who can deal with this stuff are too old to care now.
Then there is a huge age gap to the next era. The Subaru WRX crowd (I had one, great car btw) and the way-over-squeezed Honda CRXs with worn out rod bearings. Not sure if there is any collector market there at all. I doubt it.
Nowadays, the tech-bros and nepo-babies want supercars, modern eurotrash coupes, or maybe top-end Mustangs. They can’t drive them correctly at speed, and likely never will. They will never understand what they own, and they will never put a wrench to them. A trip into the guardrails at the local McLaren club track weekend earns them their club’s boy scout badge of honor and a $300k repair bill.
Sorry Jim I totally disagree with you! Not sure where you are located, but this industry is FAR from the twilight zone you predict. I work and engage within this industry, and while the market does set the price, their are many cars available and priced reasonable for purchase. Those old gearheads have passed on their expertise to generations of car lovers who are actively in the industry, which I run across daily. Sorry to say your prediction of the demise of this Era of metal, will have to wait awhile..the business and hobby end continues to reset, and is doing very well…lol
Not Again…I will defer to your in-the-weeds assessment and I hope that you are right, but from what I see at cars shows and in car show photos, it’s a complete grandpa parade these days. At least at the classic vintage/muscle/rod type shows.
Low riders and street stompers and drifters might be a different story.
Missed my chance in the mid-80’s. Friend had a 63 Impala SS 409 4-speed, completely original and pristine. In the past I had told him “if you ever sell it, give me first dibs”. He laughed and said he’d never sell. Then out of the blue several years later, he calls. He’s selling and it’s mine for $4000. Holy crap! I’m a young guy, married and just had our first kid… getting by ok, but no ready cash. Still, this is the chance of a lifetime, so I tried to scrape the money together. Managed to beg and borrow some, but just couldn’t come up with enough. So, I had no choice but to pass up on it. Ever since, and still today, the pain remains of “the one that got away”.
Too bad this car is in this bad shape with that drivetrain. Parts car here. Engine is seized which is why it was parked many decades ago.
imagine that another Tri power Pontiac. the listing is gone. something fishy with that
I don’t think that the hobby is dead. Just shifting gears as the example of “Model A”s. Yes, the muscle car era is slowing down. But it will still be alive for 15-20 more years. We (older guys) have passed on the appreciation on to our kids and grandkids. Maybe not as much as we would like. And maybe they are not as reverant as we would prefer. But the recognition is there. I am a faithful attendee of Hot August Nights and see many “younger” adults there enjoying the cars. Yes they are in smaller numbers than us “older folks” but they make up about 20%. Hot August Nights is about “Hot Rods and Rock N Roll. So that crowd is what the event is geared to. And most Rat Rods are built by “younger folks” So I think that the enginuity and desire to have something different and faster is what drove us to our current automotive appreciation.
Wayne, I agree and hope you are right. There are younger enthusiasts.
The issue is with valuations of the mid-tier and lower tier drivable examples in the vintage/muscle/rod realm. And “project cars” are becoming of almost no value.
The younger generations do not have rural properties with garages and tools and places to store a parking lot full of rusting hulks that they hope to “get around to”. They live in subdivisions in the suburbs and are lucky if they have a two car garage with one stall for a nice cruiser.
So the older generation had 3 Firebirds that all ran to some extent, plus maybe a “project car” or two, with a garage and tools and skills. They even had trailers to haul their stuff around to swamp meets, and could retrieve what they wanted easily.
All of that stuff they own is coming to market, either by choice or, often these days, under less than pleasant circumstances as part of an estate. There’s nowhere for it to go, especially the project cars that need the most help.
The drivable stuff will get picked over and low-balled, but with a much smaller market of buyers to sell into. When you can only own one, you have to trade carefully. Prices for the drivable stuff is inevitably going to soften up considerably, until the right buyer comes along.
Prices for project cars and other beaten-down examples are going to flatline. There will be a lot of pressure to get anything possible, so they are going to be priced in the “I’ll give you $500 and come and get it off your property and out of your widow’s hair.” Or maybe just the latter.
If nobody comes along that will haul it off, it eventually gets hauled off to a local junkyard of some kind when the real estate changes hands.
This is all demographics and the state of the hobby. The conditions no longer exist to support the hobby in the way the old-timers did it.
The days of the guy with a couple acres on the outskirts of town and passion for all of this are coming to an end. Their properties have limited appeal to modern families because the houses themselves need all kinds of upgrades and repairs to appeal to modern wives. They are money pits.
What’s more, the kids don’t want to pay the property taxes on two acres, especially in the Northeast, which are property tax nightmare states. Add in the upkeep on a garage and a shed and the overall property maintenance and all of that.
Sure, some will, but those guys are few and far between because it’s just not how modern families operate on a budget.
We can all see it when we drive around out in the country. These “car enthusiast” properties are falling down, in a lot of instances.
I agreeto an extent. But you listing young people and their troubles financially with property and taxes. (We all have tax issues) Described me to a “T” 40 years ago. It’s all a process of getting older and accumulating stuff. I now have plenty of room and a large shop to play in. And no neighbors to complain about my parts rolling stock. Just because they don’t have it. Doesn’t diminish the desire. I wanted all that I have now fourty years ago. It just takes time, money and desire to accomplish what you want. I often see young people playing with hot cars and wonder where they get the money. As I didn’t have the wherewithal to play the way they are playing when I was that age.
Wish there were better quality images.
Good to hear the different perspectives. I don’t have a crystal ball, the hobby will likely change and adapt, it may become or stay strong.
I live in the Southwest, my perspective is, interest in cars for the average young person is now an interest in their phones, computers, entertainment, gourmet food, the social media internet experience. I don’t see much excitement from youth focused on racing, cruising, or tuning muscle cars. Maybe they will find time for all of it, seems like the price of a nice muscle car is a stretch for those who grew up in it. Who can invest $30k or $50k, much less afford a 1970 Chevelle SS?
You have got to admit and recognize the implication of the availability of a nice original 1970 Chevelle SS 454 LS6 for $1500 or a 1969 Firebird 400 Ram Air III for $900 in a 1979 classified ad is completely different than todays reality. A recent example 1970 Dodge Challenger 440 4sp $90,000.
What are the mechanic hourly rates in your neighborhood? $100/hr. probably more. What does it cost to get a quality paint job? $10k or $20k? Some would say that is too much, others would say can’t get a decent job for less. The hobby is pricing most people out. The difference may be, some of us who lived during the period were not car hobbyists, were not dedicated to the car hobby, we were simply fortunate to live through the time where the muscle cars were found in used car lots, wrecker repossession lots, classified ads, people sold them so they could purchase a new car or take a vacation. Today nice ones cost more than a new car or a vacation. The insurance is expensive, the maintenance is greater than new car, parts are difficult to get, especially if you are involved in a collision. So many are parked in an ultimate garage or trailered to shows. Sure Cars and Coffees, but these are the exception not the norm. 40-50 years ago these were daily drivers, we drove to work, drove to the track, drove on weekends and summer nights. There were no video games.
It is not over but it has changed a lot. The world of automobiles today is far from what I lived as a teen and young adult. I don’t attend car auctions just like I don’t go to strip clubs.
Jim, I totally agree with you on all your points.
When a 1970 Chevelle small block (I had a stove bolt 6 that was very nice, regardless) in very decent shape can be had for $4000 instead of $20,000, then the hobby will begin to attract a larger audience of buyers.
People who appreciate these cars will be able to afford them. I’d call that a good thing for the hobby. Not so good for the current owners, but hey.
The coming price crash for affordable, nicely-presented drivable stuff is gonna bust up some retirement accounts, but people who have them now are probably well-positioned anyhow. That’s just one less trip to Europe is really all that means for them. I doubt that anyone with any sense invests in muscle cars for the return on investment.
I doubt that a 1953 Buick Skylark convertible will get down to my budget though. :(
Lol…Bluesman as you stated my “in the weeds assessment” is based on years working within the industry. Which does include buying, selling, restoration, of model Era 1955 through current. Out of those eras, by far the demand is for the muscle car era. I cannot fill requests, and have a backlog of cars undergoing restoriation…a few examples include 68 ChevelleSS, 70 ChevelleSS, 70 Camaro SS, even a 91 fox body 5.0..I could go on but point made….those cars are for which age grp? Wait on it….35 – 40 year Olds who finally have the money….point is younger kids still have not made it financially….but their day will arrive…the industry is doing just fine..LOL…really good.
35 – 40 year Olds who finally have the money. at 35 they ‘finally have the money’, that is an interesting degree of patience demonstrated by the same age group who are raising families and hopefully building equity in homes. This may illustrate the ability to make long term sacrifice, put off immediate gratification for a restoration project that costs as much as a 20% down payment on a nice home by a generation raised on cell phones in the microwave age.
Apparently the average middle age guy will not sink that much money into a hobby. Agree, most recognize it is not an investment. When you can consistently purchase someone else’s fully restored project for less than paying someone to restore one yourself, it is obviously a hobby.
Not Again, glad to hear you enjoy making a living working on classic cars. It is hard to follow the trend, the amount being spent to restore some cars, just drives up the cost to restore the most desirable cars. Not Again is so busy restoring cars, I can’t rationalize having him (or someone like him) work on mine.
Hey Jim what is the average cost of a new vehicle in today’s market? The average mean is in the mid 40s not loaded. What is the average repair cost, for those new vehicles? Please include all the updated technology Cost. Why do you think all major insurance companies have raised there rates? Because the cost of repairs and technology has went out of orbit. To replace an alternator in shop will cost you over 1k the average car on the road is now 12 years of age..I could continue but point made..Also the average age for 1st time home buyers is now 40 years of age..when they finally have the down monies, which most are putting off due to high interest rates..or decide they will never purchase a home…which does allow for other expenditures, if they choose…regardless of thought process, again, from the point of industry feedback..the oldies are doing just fine.
Hey Not Again, it is good to know that there is a younger slice of enthusiast out there. It sounds like you are servicing the ones with some real resources, which makes sense. What do you do? Restorations? Brokering? Project managing a rebuild?
The higher end, where quality and all of that matters, will probably hold.
But demographically, there’s a gigantic inventory of run-of-the-mill product that will have no choice but to come onto market in the next ten years, there just are not enough buyers who can absorb it, or even want it
This has been happening in all kinds of “collector” realms. The older guys are still enjoying their muscle cars but that is coming to an end.
Again, there will be some great bargains out there soon for non-matching, drivable muscle that is being offered now at unsustainable prices, all because the top end, rare stuff is still holding up.
It’s two completely different markets, really. Different product, different buyers, different rules apply to each.
I don’t know what to think about the hobby anymore. My personal thing back in the day was the cars that had way more power than they looked like they had so when I came across someone who had a flashy muscle car I usually whooped them just so I could see the look on their face because I never could afford a flashy one myself. I hung up my wrenches a few years back and even though I still love the oldies they’re way too expensive these days to even try to obtain one, plus karma kinda kicked me too. Lets say I was actually able to spend $200k + on a 64 Thunderbolt, 427 side oiler, 4 speed, and posi guess what would happen! Some kid with good credit that can’t stick a wrench up his ass with both hands is going to roll up next to me and when the light turns green I’m not gonna see nothing but taillights from his Hellcat that he got used for 1/3 the price! That’s why so many younger people don’t or won’t bother building an old one because they can buy a new one that’s WAY FASTER and alot cheaper! I hate to admit it but around 75% of the “Muscle Cars” back in my day would be hard pressed to keep up with a new F-150 today, and seems like a waste of money to look at the restoration cost of a classic car and the time invested to the lazy entitled youth of today. I do hope there’s enough of them that’ll follow on and keep the oldies going but I’m afraid they probably won’t and, I’m even more afraid of what’s going to happen when they’re running the Country lol.
Great point, I have to admit, there are many lower priced, higher performance, more reliable cars or trucks than the muscle era classics.
I took one of those kids in his early 20’s for a ride once. He drives a used late model Challenger, base model V-8 manual trans, loud mufflers. He was very excited to get a ride, and on return launched into a list of complaints about his Challenger’s rev limiter, and traction control, and ABS safety features.
His reaction suggests part of the old classics appeal is the fun factor. Considering the Big 3 have marketed retro styled models Challenger, Mustang, Camaros, styling is another explanation.
The lack of safety features, limited braking and traction, computer controls, allows the driver to reach and exceed the limits producing an exciting driving experience. The ability to drive to the edge of being out of control made them enjoyable.
I am unable to appreciate, even imagine the performance of a Hellcat, Z06 or ZL1 Corvette, or Mustang. I do wonder how much fun those must be, I do not see drivers doing burnouts or getting sideways in those new high performance cars in the streets. Instead it is the front wheel drive Honda or Lexus revving red light to red light.
Wow you all are writing novels instead of comments not even directly about the vehicle in question 65 was my favorite year but 66-67 were close behind for me I am 68 and still actively restoring cars like this but this one is to far and too highly priced
My dad had the exact car, color and all but with the 389 obviously. Beautiful car. My mom could out shift and out drive most of the guys, she was a terror. Their best friends had a 69 Mach One Mustang with a four speed with blocks on the pedals so she could drive it and she was like my mom, she could drive too.
wow. that was pretty depressing reading all these chapters on life. it’s a 66 gto. that’s all
Car shows are 95 percent very old people.myself included.i can see.the party is almost over now.forget about project cars.eay,way to much money.of course you can buy one done for cheaper.man it costs a train load of money to restore a project.and your labor,forget it.you might end up paying a buyer . crazy.
I have to agree with previous comments about young people driving these big old cars.when we were young we could fill them up for 5 dollars worth of gas.today that same car will cost over a 100 to fill so you can go maybe 200 miles.kids can’t today can’t afford that unless they have rich parents.as for doing work most are too lazy to do it themselves and if they have to farm it out it cost 20.000 just to paint.they are looking more towards hondas nissans and toyotas and let’s face it some of these cars with proper set ups they are faster than what we drove at their age.I have been saying this for a long time now when I see kids supering their ride.
The car experience for me, is a travel back in time. Although I like power steering, V-8 smoothness and power, and extra creature comforts like PW,cruise,etc. and 3 of my cars have all those. But I took my 1950 Pontiac Streamliner out for a spin earlier today, and I love the look of it (fastback) and the more direct interaction with the car. No power steering, just a straight 6 with 3 on the tree, a radio and heater. It sits up high and the divided front windshield and the smell of the original headliner all combine for great time travelling. I hope that someone gets the GTO and can have fun with it as just a good ol survivor. Frank
Great commentary from all you guys! We need this kind of discussion. Well anyway ‘this 66 goat is a 389 tri power not 400, but I’m a big block chevelles owner. Stay safe and warm wherever you are!
This was one of the better forums to be a part of. Love the view points on a job some of us hold near and dear due our childhood experiences and dreams. First, this GTO has sadly become a clapped out parts car IMHO. Shame someone dint do something with it when it first broke…even if that meant selling it. Will never understand people that leave these kinds of cars in their “back 40” to return to the earth via rusting away. Second, I too miss the Want Ad Press classified listings magazine from the 80’s where you could find amazing (for today) deals on what we now call classic muscle cars back then were just cars. Back when you put studded snows on your Superbird because is was “just a car” and the only car you had to get to work. My 2 sons think my ‘14 Shelby GT500 convertible is wicked cool, they’re in their early 20’s and I didn’t get it until in my mid 50’s once college and everything they would need to get their lives started was taken care of. My oldest wants a WRX/STI, younger guy wishes for a Viper. Subaru is readily available, but finding one that hasn’t gone through the Fast and Furious mods not so much. Viper, attainable sure, but not cheap and certainly not a daily driver (maybe). The hobby is alive, see lots of people attending cruise nights during the summer but the hobby, like life, has changed. For the better, maybe/maybe not, but it has been and always will be a fun ride.