From the days when performance was still available as a full-size thumper, we have this 1965 Pontiac 2+2 for your review. This example was originally equipped with an unusual powertrain but things have changed over the years. Parked in 1975, this big Pontiac convertible is looking for a new home after its long period of dormancy. Found in Webster, New York this car is available, here on eBay for an opening bid of $5,000.
According to the Pontiac Historical Society (PHS), this Poncho came originally equipped with a 338 gross HP, 421 CI V8 mated to a three-speed manual transmission – how unusual! Well, we have a split decision now, the 421 has been replaced with a 400 (though the 421 heads are attached) and the three-speed has been ditched for a four-speed manual transmission. The seller advises that the carburetor is stuck and, “The ENGINE TURNS OVER and CRANKS BUT WILL NOT FIRE”. Apparently, the brakes don’t work either. It appears that there is some stuff missing like the cooling fan and the radiator.
The “E” paint code translates into Danube Blue and the finish has done what all dark color GM lacquers do, they oxidize and craze. The seller details, “This Catalina needs a lot of work to be roadworthy again. To begin, the convertible top needs to be replaced and the power motor does not function (the switch does nothing). The driver’s floor has rusted through causing the back of the seat to fall through. It needs various rust repair and sheet metal around the whole body“. The underside is pretty shaky looking too with heavy rust and scale. Don’t get your hopes up with those cool eight-lug wheels, this Tin Indian only has one.
The interior’s black bucket seat/center console arrangement shows reasonably well (other than that mishap with the back of the seat). The Morrokide-tough vinyl upholstery isn’t showing signs of rips or sun damage though the carpet is pretty worn and perhaps that’s the result of water damage, and thus, that pesky seat problem. The instrument panel still shows well, however, and the factory tachometer is a nice inclusion.
Authenticity is nice but anyway you cut it, this Pontiac is a “Yousetabee” – the loss of the original 421 CI engine matters, adversely, from a valuation perspective. But, if you’re looking for a cool cruiser, one that has some go while the wind courses through your hair, here you go. But…this one is gonna take a lot of work and investment just to get to that road-worthy point, wouldn’t you agree?
It’s true New York never issued “title documents” for 1966 vehicles, but this car has another potential registration issue that’s more serious.
Look at the rivets attaching the VIN plate on the door jamb. They look like regular pop rivets without the “rosette-head” design used by GM in 1966. That’s not good at all, and a deal-breaker for me at any price.
I worked as a body man back around the time we did a lot of work on these do to the cars age and in some cases we had to pull the vin tags to do work in that area . These rivets are a replacement type by the local GM or Pontiac deal that we used to reattach the vin plate back
Actually you’re incorrect about the rivets
But still
Without the correct 421 it’s just a bonneville
I’d really like to learn more about use of round rivet heads by Pontiac. I’ve never heard of that.
Some GM models did have round rivet heads as plants changed from spot-welding attachment to pop-riveting VIN plates in late 1964. I believe this happened on ’65 Corvette and Corvair assembly lines at least. By mid-1965, I assumed all GM plants were using Rosette-head rivets. That’s why I said the round-head rivets were wrong for 1966 models.
I believe this particular Pontiac was built in March of 1965. The DMV here would require a reference document before they’d accept a round-head rivet as factory for a 1965 Pontiac. Do you know of such a reference?
2 plus 2 is a Catalina, not a Bonneville
I agree the rivets do look incorrect, but I tend to believe shops doing repair work would not go to the effort to find the correct rivets also back in the day. I can also tell you that my 1965 Corvair built at Willow Run MI used the rosette rivets, and my 66 Corvair built at Van Nuys CA also used the rosette rivets. My 65 GTO built in Pontiac MI has rosette rivets, and is fully documented including PHS. But back to this car, the fact it has PHS, and the car visibly seems to match (options, colors, etc) it is likely the correct VIN, but checking the hidden VIN on the frame would be a smart move if you are seriously interested in this car. Either way this is going to be an awfully expensive restoration!
If anyone is interested, I have a complete black bucket seat interior and a complete set of 8 lug wheels for a 65 2+2 2dr HT
I might be interested in the interior I have a 65 convert.
Call me at 573-541-1970 or email collectorcarsandparts@yahoo.com
Cars like this need a discerning buyer to ascertain a reasonable low price. With the right friends and time, what an incredible and fun at home project this would be.
Oy, well, apparently there’s a couple of these great Ponchos stashed away. Too bad most of the “good” ones have already been found, and this is the “bottom of the barrel”. If people do know about cars like this, there’s a reason why they are still available, it’s just too much work. I can’t understand why someone would equip a big Poncho like this with a 4 speed( I could use that T handle, they cost a fortune today) Big Pontiacs, especially convertibles, seemed to cater to a different crowd. You want to go fast, neck jerking, pressed agin the seat, you bought a GTO. This was for a more “civilized” ride. Guys like my single his whole life Uncle Marv bought Pontiacs like this. Come to think of it, I don’t ever recall my uncle driving a stick shift car. Didn’t want to, shifting was passe, automatics were the rage, and preferred during that time. Nice find, sadly, I doubt it will get restored.
Well; a ’65 421 2+2 manual ‘vert was by no means a bottom-of-the-barrel car when new. This was an altenative buy for the sporty gentleman who was a potential ’65 Impala SS BB ‘vert buyer but got a raise recently.
It’s so, so sad its OE driveline is gone – the 421 alone is a hugely desirable power plant in the Pontiac crowd and the 3spd manual may very well have been the ‘Dearborn’ toploader
Look, I enjoy your posts, but would you read my comment thoroughly before saying something I didn’t mean? What I meant was, and I shouldn’t have to explain this, but you had to call me out, THIS particular car is the “bottom of the barrel”, not the fantastic car that rolled out of the showroom in 1965. It’s no wonder so many people think I’m a doofus, they don’t/can’t understand English.
Howard; re-reading your initial post I realize I misread it as you regarding a base driveline Cat 2+2 a lowly car by ’65 standards. My bad, but I’ll put it on the account of me – as I’ve mentioned before on this site – not having English as my mother tongue.
With that said; it was never my intention to humble you – actually I, too, enjoy reading your comments as they regularly include fitting ‘from the sidelines’ observations on how our hobby has developed and entertaining stories from the days the vehicles we see featured were in daily usage. BF is a friendly site and I have all intentions of contributing to it to stay like that. Wishing you a nice weekend, honestly
I apologize, I guess I was upset that someone ripped on an author on another post,( and was since removed) but they got their 2 cents in 1st. It’s a shame some folks find fault with the writers, when they do the best they can. I wonder if it’s why BFs is always looking for writers??? Peace, my friend!
OK Pontiac 8-bolt experts, help me out here:
As I recall, the 8-bolt rear axle hubs are different, and the axle shafts were different. Does this mean the rear axle on this car has a 5-bolt setup on one side, and an 8-bolt setup on the other side?
I’ve checked online, but can’t seem to find out what’s involved in changing from 5 bolt hubs to 8 bolt hubs.
Bill, the 8 lugs hold the finned drums to the rim. if you pop the center caps off, the rear wheels attach in the traditional 5 bolt set up. The fronts are held on by a central nut onto the front hubs. there are I believe two main sets of these , from 1962 to about 1965 and from 1966 to 68 or there about. The latter ones are a bit wider and more desirable. I got a set of the latter ones to restore but have not done anything with them.
Jake, Thanks for the very clear explanation!
Hey Jake, would you be interested in selling your 8-lug wheels? Rob
Bill; I’m in no way an expert on the 8lugs but as far as I remember the rear axle is supposed to be the easy part of the 5-to-8lug conversion. Not sure whether there were any differences between the axle shafts.The rear 8lug drums have a 5bolt center and supposedly the 5lug rear brake setup even used the same brake shoes as the 8lugs. Check out the provided link and scroll 1/2way down the page and you’ll find a pic comparing the front vs rear 8lug drums.
https://autouniversum.wordpress.com/2019/11/29/a-1960s-classic-the-pontiac-8-lug-wheel/
Finding a hub assembly is required to follow up with the conversion up front. For further details on the 8lugs my go-to-guy suggestion would be Les Kasten @ Pontiac Paradise http://www.pontiacparadise.com/parts-id/8-lug-wheels.php
Thanks for the link, it made for an interesting read. It also explains why I was not finding anything on these wheels, as I was searching for the term “8 Bolt”, not “8 Lug”.
It also cleared up 2 other questions I wondered about;
1. Why I never saw a GTO with these wheels.
2. Why a 1968 Bonneville wagon I once owned, equipped with every conceivable option except for the 8 Lug wheels, didn’t have them because the wagon had disc brakes instead.
The wagon was ordered by Mr. King, of King Pontiac of Gaithersburg, MD, a family friend. He always had the general manager of the dealership order 2 fully loaded cars every year, a high performance coupe for himself, and a big wagon for his wife. The wagon actually had so many options it had TWO window stickers. It even had a pair of GM air mattresses for camping [I still have ’em!]
Well I was,too, amazed to find out the 8lugs were never available on the GTO when I found the Pontiac Paradise site 4 years ago. The reason for that is that I can clearly remember seeing in a magazine in the early 90s a ’66 GTO TriPower ‘vert WITH the 8lugs installed.
Check out this period Pontiac TV commercial showing the ’66 GTO and, lo and behold, there we have an A-body with the 8lugs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PtcGswMQp8
Apparently the 8lugs were destined for the GTO at some point however it just didn’t happen
On watching that Pontiac GTO video put together for the sales people at Pontiac dealerships, it jogged my memory about a conversation from about 1979 or 80. One of my customers owned a Ferrari 275 long nose that my shop did extensive rust repairs on, due to Ferrari using both steel and aluminum panels in places like the door assemblies, causing massive electrolysis issues where the different metals were joined.
The Ferrari owner was a former GM Stylist at BOP, and I do remember he saw my GTO and asked about the car, as it was very unusual to be loaded with all the options. We got to talking about the GTO and how I wanted to put the 8 Lug wheels on it, and he said the Pontiac executives felt the 8 Lug wheels looked too big on the smaller body, and that was the reason they were never offered.
On seeing that video, I think they were right. Those wheels looked great on my Catalina 2+2, but I am inclined to think the Pontiac suits may have made the correct decision when it came to offering them on the mid size cars.
I love what this car could be, but the cost to get it there.
every 100 pounds of wieght loss = a tenth in the 1/4. 3-4 tenths this old girl picked up i reckon.
“Round headed rivets and eight bolt axle hubs”
Was that by Bon Jovi or was it Skeeter Davis?
The late, great Frank Zappa,,