Disclosure: This site may receive compensation when you click on some links and make purchases.

Plastic-Wrapped Seats: 1958 Edsel Pacer Convertible

It is possible that I’m the odd man out because I think that 1958 Edsels are the best looking of the doomed brand’s offerings. The company tried to tone down the unique and divisive horse-collar grille the following year, but I think the brand lost much of its character with that move. This 1958 Edsel Pacer Convertible is an original survivor featuring factory plastic on its seats. It is wonderfully preserved and is begging for a new home. The seller listed the Convertible here on eBay in Cypress, Texas. Bidding has raced beyond the reserve to sit at $18,107.

I remember a comedian once saying that the Edsel was an acquired taste, and those with taste didn’t acquire one! I think that is cruel, although it is true that the styling could have been better had fewer people made unwelcome contributions during its development. This one wears its original Sunset Coral paint that shines impressively for its age. The seller admits there are a couple of small stains on the trunk, but I would need to perform an in-person inspection to decide whether they require attention. The panels are straight, and the soft-top is new. Cars from this era were renowned for rust issues, and the Edsel was no exception. This Pacer has avoided those problems, with barely a trace of surface corrosion and no steel penetration. The chrome looks fantastic for a vehicle of this age, and the glass is flawless. The color-coded spinner wheel trims and whitewall ties add a touch of class to this American icon.

This Pacer’s interior sends mixed messages, but the overall impression is positive. There are no aftermarket additions, which helps to cement the car’s originality and potential value. It is trimmed in a combination of Salmon and White, with the seats wrapped in their original protective plastic covers. Therefore, there is no evidence of wear, other issues, or signs of physical damage. The same applies to the remaining upholstered surfaces, while the dash appears perfect. However, there are weak points worth mentioning. The floor mat doesn’t fit well, especially around the transmission tunnel. There is also wear and a couple of splits, which may prompt some to search for a replacement. The wheel has wear, although it is not beyond salvation for someone willing to tackle its restoration. It retains many features that were a talking point when the covers came off the Edsel. These include the funky speedometer and minor controls, an AM radio, and the cool but often problematic wheel-mounted Teletouch pushbutton automatic transmission selector.

One area where the Edsel should have excelled was in the world of performance. This Pacer features its original 361ci “400E” V8 that sends 303hp and 400 ft/lbs of torque to the rear wheels via a three-speed automatic transmission. It sounds fine in theory, but the killer for the Pacer Convertible was a curb weight of 4,630 lbs. That meant the journey down the ¼ mile took a relatively leisurely 17.4 seconds. Some buyers expected more but were unwilling to see that the vast expanses of chrome trim and gimmicks like the Teletouch system added weight, which is the sworn enemy of performance. The seller indicates that the car is original and runs and drives well. A “however” is attached to that claim because they admit the engine becomes smokey once warm. Their mechanic believes the rings are sticking due to lack of use, and if this is accurate, the situation may improve as time passes. Otherwise, potential buyers may need to factor engine rebuild costs into their budget for this classic.

Much has been made over the years of the failure that was the Edsel experiment, and many factors led to the situation where Ford tore up more millions of dollars than they would like to admit. The harsh reality is that if you break down the various aspects of the story, it would be fair to say that it was the wrong car at the wrong time. Some say the story may have been different had the vehicle been good when it was new or new when it was good. Only 1,876 buyers handed over the cash for a 1958 Pacer Convertible, but it was far from the least successful vehicle to wear the “E” badge that year. That honor fell to the Bermuda 9-Passenger Station Wagon, which found a mere 779 buyers. A car that was unloved when new has become a cult classic, which is reflected in the strong bidding on this survivor. However, with values taking a recent hammering in the market, it may explain why the action hasn’t graduated to frantic. It is said that what goes up must come down, but it will be fascinating to see if the opposite is true for the Edsel. If values have reached rock bottom, now might not be a bad time to speculate and submit a bid or two. I would still expect it to top $30,000 before the hammer falls, but with it already past the reserve, a new home is mere days away for this survivor.

Comments

  1. mike

    Just beautiful…Make a great weekend driver

    Like 23
  2. Robert

    If I weren’t 3000 miles from Texas and poor, I’d have this car in my garage … if I had a garage … love it

    Like 28
    • Shuttle Guy Shuttle Guy Member

      This site needs to add emoji’s. I’d click on the “laughing emoji” for this one. :)

      Like 0
      • Gerald Edgar

        Why? Exceptional shape for a 65 yr old car!

        Like 6
    • Terry J

      LOL Robert. Like that old saying:” If I had a car we’d go for a drive if I had some gas.” :-) Terry J

      Like 2
  3. Jeff

    Did the front seat come originally that way, with the lower driver portion different from all the rest of the seats ??

    Like 4
    • Tiberius1701
      • Jeff

        Thanks! That’s just bizarre. Citation has mismatched passenger seat back, while Pacer has mismatched driver’s seat bottom. If it was 68 instead of 58 I’d say the design team must have smoked a little too much ganga!

        Like 6
  4. Doone

    Looks like the master cylinder has been replaced with a dual reservoir. That wasn’t OE new.

    Like 6
  5. DRV

    Dual master and vacuum!
    Somehow this body and trim look so much cleaner than the other Edsels I’ve seen.

    Like 3
    • Yblocker

      You’ve probably seen the upscale Citation or Corsair, they were longer and had much more brightwork.

      Like 4
  6. HuskerC10

    I’ve heard the reason why the Edsel sold so terribly wasn’t just because of the styling but, I believe there was a recession back then as well? Plus Ford added the Edsel to an already busy manufacturing line at the assembly plant hence for that’s why they had so many issues with the car when they were new. But, just like the Pontiac Aztek these are unique and different and I like the Edsel to be honest.

    Like 1
    • Bill McCoskey Bill McCoskey Member

      HuskerC10,

      The Edsel did have the unfortunate situation where it was introduced at the same time as America began the worst recession since WW2. But another big problem was how the Edsel introduction was handled.

      For months Ford had been telling the public that it was introducing an “all new car”, and kept a really tight grip on what it looked like. Even automotive journalists who were known for keeping secrets when asked, were kept at bay. Due in part to the huge advertising campaign that left people imagining what the new Edsel would look like, when it was finally released to the public, both the media and the public expected far more than what reality revealed. Pre-introduction print & TV ads featured Edsel cars completely covered with tarps except for small squares of exposed glass. The result was a lot of disappointed people, the automotive press included. It was quickly apparent the “ALL NEW” Edsels were simply Fords and Mercurys with different trim. In addition, Edsel had introduced 4 different trim levels of cars, with a total of 18 different models. Many of these cars were so close to similar Fords and Mercurys that they took away sales from each other.

      Many historical automotive writers have commented on the the theory if Ford had not been so secretive in creating the hype around the Edsel, both the press and the public would not feel so deceived and turned off.

      Production decisions also made a difference. Ford was expecting 1st year production around 200,000 vehicles. However except for the first week of sales, Edsel sales & production never even came close. In 1953 Ford, in a fight with GM for dominance, simply upped production, requiring dealers to accept [and pay for] cars. They were told it was up to them to sell the cars. GM also did the same.

      But with Edsel, when the sales fell off, they drastically cut production. When the recession started to hit hard in February 1958, for the first 3 weeks, on average, Edsel production was down to 367 units per week. The 4th week the production was only 2 [yes, two] cars. For the next 10 weeks Edsel production never exceeded 10 cars per week, four of those 10 weeks saw ZERO Edsels made, and 1 week saw only 1 unit. [Production numbers from “Spellbinder”, page 179.] At least the cars were made on the same assembly lines as Fords and Mercurys, so the lines didn’t have to close.

      One other situation may have hastened Edsel’s future in the minds of the public. Shortly after it was introduced, Henry Ford II and the board decided to roll the 3 brands of Lincoln, Mercury, and Edsel into one umbrella operating group, instead of each having some autonomy. The result was the new M-E-L group [Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln], and some car buyers, already spooked by failures of makes like Kaiser, Packard, Willys, Nash, & Hudson, began to lose confidence in the Edsel brand, further harming it’s fragile image.

      Like 5
      • "Edsel" Al leonard Member

        Bill,, See below.

        Like 0
      • Yblocker

        That’s like saying Pontiacs we’re Oldsmobiles and Buicks with different trim. The only thing the 58 Edsel had in common with Ford and Mercury was the roofline.

        Like 0
  7. Don

    Somebody once said it looks like an Oldsmobile sucking a lemon. I had one in salmon & grey, matching interior. if it rained you might as well leave the top down you got just as wet with it up. My 1st car.

    Like 4
    • Greg

      Don, that was Tom McCahill of Mechanix Illustrated but, if memory serves, his actual quote was that of a Mercury sucking a lemon.

      Like 0
  8. Yblocker

    The Edsel wasn’t a bad car, the only real issue was the first and only year pushbutton transmission, mainly due to the complex wiring and contact assembly between the steering wheel and column. A 3spd manual was available, but most were built with the novel pushbutton auto. I find it hard to believe a Pacer convertible weighs that much, but maybe so, the sedans weren’t nearly that heavy. Beautiful car.

    Like 6
    • "Edsel" Al leonard Member

      Edsel’s were great cars..ahead of their times…bad recession in ’58, too many pencil pushers.(Rob’t McNamara and his boys), mgt wouldn’t listen to line workers suggestions thus many arrived at dealerships with wrong parts, or missing parts…..all auto makers sales were down 30% +..many went out of business….

      Like 16
      • Bill McCoskey Bill McCoskey Member

        Al,

        Have you had an opportunity to read “Spellbinder”, Stuart Blond’s new book on the life of James J, Nance? It’s a 2 volume set with Vol 2 dealing with his time at Ford, and makes excellent reading concerning his conversations and dealings with Henry II, McNamara, the Whiz Kids, and Ernie Breech. The book goes deep into the formation of M-E-L & the Edsel situation, and includes plenty of never before published info on what happened.

        While Vol 1 deals with Nance’s early life and employment history, It’s centered on the last years of Studebaker & Packard. Vol 2 takes over at S-P’s last moments in Detroit, then Nance’s move to Ford.

        [Full disclosure; I’ve known the author for many years through his work with the Packard Club and Kanter Auto Parts]

        Like 5
      • ACZ

        I absolutely love that 1960 model in your pic!

        Like 3
      • Shuttle Guy Shuttle Guy Member

        I always liked those ’60’s.

        Like 2
    • jrmedsel

      A lot of the issues with the Teletouch was that the electric shift motor sits right next to the exhaust manifold. They’d got hot and not shift, or fail overall. There are a number of Edsel club members who rebuild Teletouch units and they are reliable. I had mine rebuilt 12 years ago, driven 15,000 miles since then with no problems.
      In addition to the three on the tree manual, 1958 Edsels could also be ordered with a lever automatic on the steering column. However few people ordered them because of heavy advertising for the “modern” Teletouch

      Like 5
      • "Edsel" Al leonard Member

        Ditto on the heat issues with the teletouch….a short time into production they came up with a “Pre-catalytic converter” shield bolted between the external relay and the offending exhaust pipe…at a car show an actual Louisville plant assemblyman told me stories of how bad the design was…the shield was installed but there were other electrical issues that ended up being the demise of the TT ..I checked my 58 Corsair before I bought it…the shield was in place…and the transmission works fine to this day….I have been in contact with 2 guys who have all the parts and experience necessary to ensure the TT you have works as it should…

        Like 3
      • "Edsel" Al leonard Member

        Found and ordered both of Blond’s books tonite..thanks for the heads up Bill…….

        Like 2
      • Bill McCoskey Bill McCoskey Member

        Al,

        I think you will find the books a good read. Stuart was able to access Jim Nance’s personal paperwork. Like many executives, he took copious notes on just about everything he did, conversations, names of those he talked with, his plans, and much more. The author was able to use these notes, along with other rcords of meetings and corporate decisions, to provide a ‘never before seen’ look at what happened at S-P, M-E-L, Lincoln and Edsel.

        Would love to know what you and anyone else’s thoughts are after finishing the books. My email is my name {at} aol {dot} com [no space between my first & last name].

        Like 2
      • Bill McCoskey Bill McCoskey Member

        The Edsel and 1956 Packard electric push-button shift were very similar in operation. The Packard system also had overheating problems with contacts, but in their situation, the contacts were subject to high levels of amps, higher than the thin contacts could handle if there was the slightest amount of corrosion. The solution was simple, electroplate the bare copper contacts, but by the time it was solved, the Detroit part of the company was gone.

        Like 1
  9. Lukin R.

    The best design of all the Edsel years. Just awesome.

    Like 5
    • "Edsel" Al leonard Member

      I agree…..

      Like 6
    • "Edsel" Al leonard Member

      Will do Bill….thanks again….

      Like 0
    • "Edsel" Al leonard Member

      Bill.. did have a problem shifting while at the Iola show last July…wouldn’t go from R to D once it started…tinkered around until I heard clicking sound at P-R relay on firewall…tapped it a few times and it worked…found a guy who works on the TT system and got a rebuilt relay from him with instructions to replace the 40A breaker on the side with a 15 or 20A…problem solved..now to clean the origional relay and have a good spare!!!

      Like 0
  10. TheOldRanger

    I never understood why this car got such bad remarks. I liked the looks of it (mainly because it was different) and always thought this received unwarranted negative comments. I would love to own this and drive it around our Village…. this would bring the rest of the old geezers out of their houses to check this beauty out.

    Like 13
  11. David Nelson

    I love the 58’s only and my love for the Edsel began when my grandad bought a new 58 Pacer coupe in aqua and cream! I still have his dealer promo model and have had 3 Pacers over the years myself! 74 now and have 3 antiques else I would love to have this example!

    Like 7
  12. David Nelson

    I love the 58’s only and my love for the Edsel began when my grandad bought a new 58 Pacer coupe in aqua and cream! I still have his dealer promo model and have had 3 Pacers over the years myself! 74 now and have 3 antiques else I would love to have this example!

    Like 4
  13. Richard Kirschenbaum

    You are spot on as to this being the handsomest of the Edsels. Give me this beauty over any ’58 Chevy. and they (the Chevys) are gorgeous, don’t get me wrong.

    Like 1
  14. pwtiger

    I’m looking at the Standard Catalog of American Cars, it claims that the Pacer Convertible weight is 4311 pounds but they also say that the Citation weighs 4311? They also say that the 1958 Ford Sunliner weighs 3637, this is the same platform as the Pacer, so where did that extra weight come from? The Citation was built on a Mercury platform using a big block Lincoln engine shrunk to 410 cubes. The Mercury Montclair convertible weighed almost 4300. By the way I think this car is awesome and should bring 50K

    Like 5
  15. Kent

    I remember when they first came out. They were ugly then, and they’re ugly now!

    Like 3
    • Yblocker

      So was your sister.

      Like 7
      • "Edsel" Al leonard Member

        Whoa now Yblocker…..like an a@@, everybody has an opinion- even if he is dead wrong!!

        Like 7
      • Shuttle Guy Shuttle Guy Member

        Still in Junior High ey.

        Like 2
  16. JT Member

    I can’t get past the front looking like a part of the female anatomy . But, hey what can I say, one of my collector cars is a Mellow Yellow Gremlin X!!!

    Like 5
  17. Howie

    Cool car, $19,300 now. The left taillight does not line up well with the trunk.

    Like 4
    • "Edsel" Al leonard Member

      That was “quality control” back then……

      Like 3
  18. Bill McCoskey Bill McCoskey Member

    I have an interesting 1958 Edsel Pacer convertible story to tell.

    It begins in the late 1960s when my best friend Richard and I, both still in high school, began collecting antique Packard cars. A neighbor across the street named George had an interest in old cars as well. In 1970 I bought a beautiful red 1966 Plymouth Fury convertible, and george was quick to find and buy a 1965 Fury Convertible he painted red.

    George also had an interest in Edsels, as his mom had owned a ’58. One day the 3 of us headed out to visit a huge junkyard near Frederick, MD. The yard, A & D auto parts and towing, had hundreds of 1930s thru 50s cars. Richard and I were looking for Packard parts, and George had come along to help.

    In the yard George discovered a red 1958 Edsel Pacer convertible, with black coves in the rear fenders. The car had been there for years, and the top was in tatters. But the car was complete. Geoge was very knowledgeable when it came to Edsels, and he figured out this Edsel was a special car. He had to own the Edsel.

    George talked to ‘Bunkie’, the owner of the yard, making a deal to buy the car and have it delivered to his home about 2 hours away. Once home, we all pitched in to clean out all the leaves, branches, and other organic material, including many, many active wasp nests. Within a few weeks George had a letter from another Edsel club member, and his suspicions were confirmed. If I remember correctly, his Edsel was the 7th one made, and the FIRST Pacer convertible ever built! What Richard and I always found interesting was George’s Edsel was pretty basic, it had the automatic transmission with Tele-Touch, power steering, radio and heater, but that was the limit of options, it even had rubber floor mats, no carpeting. We figured the car was intended to be part of an advertising campain, offering a Edsel convertible at a low price.

    Now let me explain that George nad no experience as a mechanic, he barely knew which way to turn a screwdriver. So he visited a well-known and reliable car repair shop in our town, and spoke to the owner Carlos. It was agreed Carlos would tackle a full mechanical restoration of the Edsel, mostly as a long-term side project. Everything pertaining to the car’s mechanicals was replaced or ebuilt; engine, transmission, rear axle, brakes, steering, suspension, fuel & brake lines, new fuel tank, radiator, entire wiring harness, instruments, and more. The total costs [in early 1970s Dollars] over $12,000.

    George then towed the Edsel over to a local body & paint shop. I should point out that sitting in the junkyard without a top resulted in one really rusty car. The shop managed to find replacement floor & trunk pans and factory rear fenders. All these were installed [mig welded] onto the body. For the first time the front fenders and hood were removed, and the top mechanism removed. A few days later both doors were opened, and the weight of those open doors caused the main body/cowl assembly to bend backwards and the dashboard put pressure on the steering column.

    George was told the car needed a replacement body shell, and as no new ones were available he needed to find a used one. George was not happy to hear this, as the primary reason for buying this car was because the VIN and body number indicated it was Pacer convertible #1, and now he needed to find a replacement body.

    So pending the purchase of a replacement rust free Edsel Pacer convertible body shell, the car’s completed body repairs were primed, and the car was moved to his hime and a tarp wrapped around and over the car, and it sat out in the backyard for a while.

    I was gone for a few years as Uncle Sam had decided he needed me, and on my return from Germany I noticed the Edsel was gone. George had spent a huge amount of money on the car, and had never found another 1958 Edsel Convertible body shell, So he ended up selling the car to another Edsel collector for parts.

    So that’s my true story about the first Edsel Pacer convertible.

    Like 15
  19. Dwight L Andrews

    I have always liked the Edsel but couldn’t afford one.

    Like 1
  20. Tony

    Adam Clarke is not the only odd man out; the ’58s were in fact the best-looking Edsels of the three years, inside and out. Troublesome as it was claimed to be, the pushbutton transmission controls were far nicer- and modern-looking than the tack-on shifter used the very next year, which looked to set that car’s overall look back by ten years from the year it debuted.

    Some are bound to lampoon this car’s look, I know, regurgitating the same tired jargon that so-called expert auto historians have spewed for decades. I refute all those arguments. The Edsel’s looks, to me, were quite good for that period of outrageous excess in styling. To all those that like to make jokes about the ’58 Edsel, you need to hush it up until you can compare it to another Ford product of that same year: The ’58 Lincoln. You want to talk about weight problems? The Lincoln of that year was a good 700 pounds heavier, with an engine that wasn’t a lot more powerful. And looks…? Allow me to sum it up this way: The ’58 Lincoln makes the ’58 Edsel look conservative.

    Like 3
  21. Alan Henry

    I always liked the Edsel, especially the ’58 models. Some memorable ones within twenty miles of me were the bright red Ranger or Pacer 2dr hardtop with a ’57 Thunderbird engine, I think also with manual transmission, replacing the original automatic. The next one was also one of the two cheaper models, a white 4dr hardtop, with a gold colored interior. And, an elementary schoolmates parents low level yellow and gray 4dr hardtop. Then either the same red and white ’59 wagon, or two identical, once on a main drag at the end of my street, and then at a house on a street at the other end of my street. My roommate’s father had bought a Citation 4dr demonstrator while in Allen Park, MI, and swapped in ’63 for a new Ford, when the Edsel croaked. I believe I have some snapshots of him and his car here, the roommate had quite a few personal possessions she left behind, passing away one week short of three years in my house. I have two or three ’58 1:18 models, a convertible, and two hardtops. Also, one little Matchbox sized one. I get tired too, of the crass, overstated cracks about the design. All three years have great styling, in my opinion.

    Like 2
  22. Bruce Duykers

    I once worked in the creative dept. of FOOTE CONE AND BELDING AGY in Chgo. They had the Ford account to sell the Edsel. They. Told me that the Ford execs that they could name the car, and to come with at least 20 names that would be illustrated and presented ,BUT no family names could be used…the winner of the name contest would win a free auto of their choice.
    Months went by as all the FCB employees came up with very good ones.
    Ford rejected almost all, and finally went with the Grandsons name.
    Ah… the world of advertising memories.

    Like 0
    • jrmedsel

      FC&B also hired a poet to help name the car and she came up with a looong list of potential names, including names like “utopian turtletop” and “mongoose civique”.
      Perhaps in the end Edsel was the better choice.

      Like 0
    • Yblocker

      Edsel was the son, not grandson.

      Like 0
  23. George Presley

    I’ve never understood why the Edsel got such a beating on its looks. I find the’58 to be a beautiful car, especially this one. Mid-50’s was the era of excess and the Edsel is reasonably conservative compared to say the’58 Oldsmobile and more attractive from any angle compared to the Olds. I would buy this car in a hot second if I had the spare change.

    Like 1
    • ACZ

      I really don’t remember them being beaten up about the looks so much as the price. I remember an uncle of mine saying that they were like a Pontiac with a Buick price tag.

      Like 0
  24. Ed

    Seems well bought at $23k.

    Like 0
    • jrmedsel

      Agreed. $23K is a good price for a $35,000 car that only needs engine work. Even if a complete rebuild is needed, the buyer will not be underwater. That is, assuming everything else is as nice as it appears in the photos.

      Like 0
  25. "Edsel" Al leonard Member

    Most people don’t know that Henry Ford was dead set against building Edsels by themselves…thus he used 5 existing factories in 1958 for a majority of the assemblies- most noticeably Louisville, Ky which now built Mercurys, Edsels and Lincolns..thus the M-E-L logo…the build sheets would come down the line on a clothesline while the bodies would slowly roll down the assembly line…At a car show a few years back, I was explaining the Edsel building process to some people and noticed 2 guys standing to the rear of my Edsel..when people left, they approached me and told me that all I was saying regarding assembly issues were correct…turns out they both worked at the Louisville Plant and as the frames came down the line, they looked up at the build sheet…when it was an Edsel, they had to run across the line..up stairs and get the parts specific to Edsel..Needless to say, they were all besides themselves when the “edsel” was now 2 cars down the line!!! Thus many were missing parts, had wrong parts that they said could be straightened out at the dealership. After all, they did have a quota. The transports brought them to the rear of the dealership and brought inside to be made saleable..This was not a way to sucessfully introduce a new line of vehicle said the guys…out of a projected goal of 200,000 1958 Edsels, only 68,045 were built…1959 was worse- only 44,891 and 1960’s were only built for 2 months and 2 days=2846 units..A heavily mis-managed project it was!!!

    Like 1
  26. George Member

    I’ve also read that if a Mercury or Ford plant were building and Edsel, only quality issues related to Mercury or Ford were addressed. There were quality issues.

    While the styling issues are frequently mentioned, the “sucking a lemon” line to me seems typical of comedians piling on after the public had already rejected the product for other reasons. The Edsel’s Horse Collar grille is prominent, but if you want to see “call the exorcist ugly,” have a look at any Mercury offering from 1958, or even Lincoln.

    Ford Launched a middle range vehicle to compete with Oldsmobile just as the recession bit hard. Robert McNamara probably was not a fan, after all, he wanted to eliminate Mercury and did eliminate Continental as he polished up Ford’s balance sheet for privatization.

    Like 0
    • Yblocker

      If ya wanna talk ugly, talk 59 Buicks, now them things were UGLY.

      Like 1
      • ACZ

        No. Ugly is a 58 through 60 Lincoln or a 58 Packard.

        Like 0
  27. chrlsful

    never shoulda ‘kicked them out’, fine cars, looks a lill better than most the late 50s cars. Even w/all written above I say good example of the era, shoulda kept production goin~

    Like 2
  28. benjamin h root

    i always liked them because theyu were different i bought a pink one used as a mary k cometic car several years ago but was so rusty comming from ceader key fl its a fountian in my yard ben in fl

    Like 1

Leave A Comment

RULES: No profanity, politics, or personal attacks.

Become a member to add images to your comments.

*

Get new comment updates via email. Or subscribe without commenting.